FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PREMIO DE PORTUGAL 2020 - PORTIMAO....RACE ▄▀▄▀ Spoilers ▀▄▀▄ | Page 11 | FerrariChat

FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PREMIO DE PORTUGAL 2020 - PORTIMAO....RACE ▄▀▄▀ Spoilers ▀▄▀▄

Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Oct 25, 2020.

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  1. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    Stats aren't important, stats are everything.

    Being a fan of a driver is not necessarily tied to the guy having success. furoni loves Alesi and I'm thrilled by Lance.

    To me the GOAT title is all about stats and not about fandom. Pure and simple. Right now MS is the GOAT because he still has the most WDCs, which is the ultimate goal/stat. That's likely going to change with Lewis equaling that measure, then it defaults to the next important stats, which is number of victories. Thereafter it's probably number of podiums, pole positions and fastest laps.

    PS: And please none of that "if this hadn't happened, he would have won blablabla". Yes I adored Bellof and he would have likely become the first German F1 WDC long before MS but fate dealt him another card. Same goes for Senna. Or MS in 99. Arguing about that is utterly pointless. As one moderator on here used to say: If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus.
     
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  2. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    The F2002 and F2004 where dominant cars, and most drivers would've been champion in that. 2000, 2001, 2003? Absolutely not. 2006 few if any drivers would've given Alonso the challenge Schumacher did.

    95 Berger drove that Benetton, and said it was practically undrivable, and he had no idea how Schumacher won races with it let alone championships. Alesi said the same.
    I can go on and on...
     
  3. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm flattered you read my comments. :D
     
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  4. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Many still call Senna the GOAT. Half the titles of Lewis, less than half the titles of Schumacher...less than half their wins.

    Stats aren't everything. Context matters. I.e. how many seasons/races was driver in a car that was on average X faster than competition?
     
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  5. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I've said it many times before and I say it again:

    If stats don't matter you're on the proverbial thin ice of figure skating where the subjective votes of the judges decide the outcome. Not my cup of tea.
     
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  6. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    I don't agree with some of your posts, especially since your turn for worse on Schumacher and pro Lewis/Stroll (I can understand being a fan of any driver but not to the point of delusion). Doesn't mean I'd put you on ignore...that's for a more...special group:p
     
  7. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I promise to work hard to make the cut for that group.

    Seriously regarding Mick you're dead wrong: I wish him nothing but the best on his way through F1. I was very critical of him some years ago as the MS fans heralded him as the next MS. I doubt he will become that but that's neither here nor there. He has earned his F1 seat this year with his march from the back of the F2 field to the front. So I'm perfectly fine with him being in F1. And it is nice to have the Schumacher name back. After all Ralf was a great driver. :p
     
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  8. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Stats are a good indicator but not the ultimate decider of greatness.

    On that basis one could have someone like Latifi drive a car with the performance margin of the Mercs, a sack of sand occupying the other car...given enough races and time, he'll eventually beat Hamilton and Schumacher.

    Would anyone regard him as the GOAT?

    No.

    Statistically speaking, Hamilton drove cars with greater performance relative to the rest of the field than Schumacher did. As Ross Brawn said...back in the ''dominant'' Ferrari years, Schumacher won quite a few races that he shouldn't have won. I don't think the same can be said about any driver in the Mercedes era.
     
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  9. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    True but that scenario would never happen. Only the best drivers get to drive the best cars. Team managers don't put a Latifi into their expensive car if there is a better driver.

    Stroll Sr. is the exception that proves the rule. :)

    And regarding GOAT: Here the law of averages comes into play because we are looking at a very long series of events. Panis won a GP. Sounds good but that was a one hit wonder. If you're talking GOAT you are looking at hundreds of races over years/decades and thus the statistical outliers of freak anomalies are outweighed.

    Agreed that stats aren't the ultimate measure but without them the discussion becomes too subjective. They might not definitely tell us whether MS or Lewis is the GOAT but they do tell us that we are looking at immense talents operating in rarefied air.
     
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  10. sammysaber

    sammysaber Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2011
    553
    From Grand Prix Diary :

    Lewis also said how good it was to have his dog Roscoe there. Valtteri isn’t allowed to have a dog at a race track as he can’t hold onto a lead :D

    Best,
    Sammy

     
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  11. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2012
    3,851
    Well said. What they don't talk about is Schumi's negatives stats. Like being the only driver to be disqualified.
     
  12. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    Tropical
    Lewis said the cramp was in his right calf ..so had to lift off a bit on the straights, Bottas must have loved that comment !
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    There is that.
     
  14. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    I remenber two times, and i also remenber that he gave back those 2 wins to barrichelo (Monza and Insy)...you could also ask how many times he gave a victory, i count 2 to Rubens and one to Irvine (Malasia if not mistaken), so i guess he's still losing!
     
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  15. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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  16. sammysaber

    sammysaber Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2011
    553
    Just put in google "F1 Driver lied to stewards "- Hello Elton :D

    Nice stat there !

    Best,
    Sammy
     
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  17. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2012
    3,851
    I went to F1.com, couldn't find that as a stat. But Schumi's disqualification was there on record.
     
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  18. Dino2010

    Dino2010 F1 Rookie
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    Nov 20, 2006
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    Maybe the calf will grow and become a cow? :D
     
  19. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Veteran
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    Every era is different, the number of races are different, the cars are different, teams are different, the rules are different, the level of competition from drivers is different...it is constant apples and oranges. I respected Moss and Andretti and Prost and Lauda and Hakinnen and Michael and now I respect Hamilton. And stats are a measure of success and not always a measure of talent, and they are always being broken, whether its football or soccer or baseball or golf or LeMans or F1. I don't feel a need to hate one driver as a sign of respect for another. My favorite eras were the Prost and Lauda eras and the duels between Michael and Mika Hakinnen. I particularly remember after one race between Michael and Mika, when Michael won...and was so emotionally overcome at the after race interview that he broke down and couldn't speak...and Mika (who placed second) came to his aid...sort of shielding Michael from the press until he could regain control of his emotions. It was an amazing moment. If I feel anger at anyone it is towards the owners and administrators of F1 for turning it into such a flaccid imitation of what it used to be.
     
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  20. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    We can also try "drivers that won races by arriving in second place"...
     
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  21. 635CSI

    635CSI F1 Rookie

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    I wish that there had been, in the Lewis era, a rival competitive combination as strong as the great Mika Hakinnen and Dennis/Newey’s McLaren. Lewis maybe even thinks so too. In any case, we hoped it was Vettel/ Ferrari. It wasn’t. Nor was it Verstappen/Red Bull. If there was Lewis and Merc would still have won championships, but not so many CONSECUTIVE championships.
     
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  22. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    GOAT drivers bring something to the sport that didn't exist before. There are plenty of drivers that are GOATs but don't have a big trophy case or a pile of stats under their names. LH is a solid driver, but no one will remember his name 2 years after he retires. Have people forgotten how ordinary he looked compared to Button and that he got beat by Rosberg?

    Further, Schumi had many epic drives. LH has had none. Hell, Gasly has had more epic drives than LH, even if it was down to pure luck.
     
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  23. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2012
    3,851
    #273 ktu, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
    This moment was so deep. Great to see them get rewarded, they had a long and sometimes rough journey. This vid will be played much in the decades to come

     
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  24. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Wait did anyone actually buy that he had cramp? Or worn tyres?
     
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  25. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    #275 DeSoto, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
    Well, he's not talking about subjectivity but about context.

    You know, Markus Winkelhock, most laps led...
     

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