V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

They are very hard....as I said a screw driver won't scratch them and they eat sand paper so at least RC55, probably more like 60-62 I guess. Because its both intake and exhaust, which are different sizes and therefore different batches/lots its unlikely a bad batch issue and are from a large, reputable company so unlikely a bad design issue.....but my guides were all tight and valves all hitting so I'm thinking this is my fault and its now fixed.

The oil was royal purple break-in oil which is very high in zinc and phosphorus and I'll use something similar for break-in this time....royal purple or Joe Gibbs, probably and probably 30 w again as the pressure was good last time and the crank will be a bit tighter this time.

Someone I trust told me years ago, I can't recall who, that they had an issue with an engine eating buckets and it came down to the hardness just being too close to the cam hardness....it could something weird like that too. So the plan is run with everything sorted and inspect...if they are wearing again find a solution as this isn't something that could ever be catastrophic during break-in and I don't really know what else to do.

 

I've definitely seen worse! Some go really overboard and have theirs DLC coated. I have to remind myself these engines don't run nearly as much seat or over-the-nose pressure as big American V8s or Harley engines, which run 2-3x greater forces, thus absolutely needing beefy oil.

 

part of the reason for light everything is less spring pressure....mine are like #65 seat, #220 nose iirc which is not far off stock but should still be fine well past redline even which cams that are literally the most aggressive lobes that can be ground on a 25mm base circle. Most aggressive as in ramp rate, I'm sure more lift could be added by increasing duration but since this is a street engine I did what I could to minimize the seat to seat duration to try to have at least some low end power which lead to relatively steep ramps, which mean relatively high lifter forces.....but I think the issue was the piston to valve clearance.....at least I hope that's it

Is the lifters fail again DLC is high on the list of things to try

 

Somewhere I have a paper somewhere where they tested DLC, polished and unpolished standard buckets. They found little difference between polished and DLC but both were much better than standard.

 

how polished? shiny like a 4u in or so?

 

Finished all the buckets and shims on head 1. Decided to shim a little looser than last time....the software likes the intake at .011 and exhaust at 6 or 7 iirc....then the cam grinder said 8-10 intake and 10-12 exhaust. I decided to go with what ever the looser number so 11-13 on the intake and 10-12 exhaust. If the intakes are making noise I'll go a little tighter next time the covers are off...but the intake has very long accel/decel ramps so tight costs a good deal of bottom end power....or so says the software.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

They say 2 heads are better than 1...so 2 it is

Image Unavailable, Please Login

I had to steal a couple shims from the 1st head to finish the second as most of the stuff I offered to top up the kit didn't arrive, I'll replace and double check when they do arrive.

Image Unavailable, Please Login



So now it will be busy work until the black and crank come home. There are some little scratches on the cams, I'll polish those up a bit. The headers could stand some clean up...wires laying under the dash.....I'm sure there's more.

 

On the busy work list I've been thinking the NBO2 sensors were not working and I should make a change. Currently I have 18 O2 bungs. 12 in each cylinder, 4 in the 1st collectors, 2 in the 2nd (bank) collectors. Sensors wise I have 4 NB O2 in the 1st collectors and 2 WBO2 in the banks. I was thinking the ECU was just not reading the NB sensors correctly...all the analog inputs have a 5V pullup which can be very helpful but isn't correct for a NBO2 sensor so when I got what looked like gibberish result I wasn't surprised. That got me to thinking a better setup would be 4 WB sensors and I've been pondering how to explain that to Lana as it will cost money.

This evening I spent some time digging through log data...the NB sensor are working just not the way I expected. I was displaying a lambda based on a simple lookup table created from the bosch data sheet...but it looks like the pullup is buggering it so the table was all wrong. its supposed to be 1.0 lambda at about 0.5V, rich above, lean below with a big dead zone from like 0.3-0.7. that's what I planned for but not what I have....it looks like I'm reading 05-1.5V with 1.0 lambda at about 1.0V, lean below, rich above so backwards and offset 0.5V

So I went back and looked directly at the voltage from each sensor

11=1-3

12=4-6

15=7-9

17=10-12

This shows i had a problem in the 10-12 group with 1 dropping out intermittently
Image Unavailable, Please Login




here is where its clear something has gone wrong in the 7-9 group with that NB not in anyway matching the others...which I know know was a dead #8

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I spent time today looking over ECU stuff on the PC and remembered I was planning to change the oil pressure sensor to send reads to the ecu then let the ecu run the dash gauge. I did a little hunting for a suitable pressure transducer....was getting ready to add it to the card when I noticed a not, "you last bought this item June 2017....hmmm....that's when I was running the engine and seeing low oil pressure which I ASSUMED meant the sending unit had failed because new engines don't have low oil pressure...yeah, the sending unit is probably just fine but I found the new sensor in the shop along with a package of adapters to make it fit the engine. It also looks like I added to the ecu code, found a mistake but still its mostly ready to go. Nice!, go me!

Also found a spare WB sensor giving me 3 (but only 2 controllers). I think the OEM oil pressure units are NLA.....that might buy me a WB controller or 2.....probably time to make the change to 4 WB sensors. I'm planing an air box that is divided into groups of 3 to match the headers and the sensors.

More ECU looking....part of the plan with sending oil pressure to the ECU is to light the slow down light (I plan to use it as a general check engine light) but also to literally slow down and trigger a 2500 redline or so and only allow very light load when oil pressure is low, this is an electronic throttle setup so can add some code to limit the throttle...another thing on my to-do list.

Just remembered I have 2 oem sensors....an 18mm from the 308 engine and a 12mm from the 400, still need to check the 400 one but I'm pretty sure it was telling the truth when it said 10-15 psi at the end. Email [email protected] if you want dibs before I ebay them. Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Woah! That's an Ameritec Turbo system on a 77-79 308. Who's car is that? Are they on FChat?

Aaron

 

pretty sure that's st@ven's car?

Several calls with the machine shop today and while the rods are all matching sizes , the block main bores...well....they aren't really all the same size so a line bore is probably in order. It was line bored before the last assembly so this is confusing particularly since he said they all seem mostly round just different sizes. anyway, this shop can't do it, which honestly surprised me, but he's got a guy he's calling. That means more money.....sensors discussion is probably off the table for now.

 

Wow Mike, I'm so sorry about your bad fortune. Hang in there. I sincerely hope you enjoy the journey more than the destination.

Aaron

 

When you do risky things sometimes it goes wrong....it would honestly be a surprise if nothing had gone wrong after all the batty sh.. I did to it. But now its had its shakedown and this time around everything is getting a pretty careful look so the chances of anything serious going wrong again are much lower. We'll know in a few weeks

 

Just like you I tend to have a few side projects going on at the same time. One of which is a 1982 Mondial 8 that I picked up a few years ago. I’m planning to install a trigger wheel and an ecu so I can get rid of the Digiplex boxes.

But I also got to thinking about how mild these 2V injected cams are. I found some stock 2V head flow numbers you posted several years ago and I noticed there was a pretty big increase between .305 stock lift and a potential .375 lift.

If I made a cam I would max out that lift but would keep the duration pretty short, possibly 230 @.050 inches to (hopefully) keep the CIS happy. I think tweaking the idle air setting and maybe raising idle to 1200 and it would work fine.

Anyway, you are the man with flow test data. If you created the best stock motor CIS 2V intake cam, what would it look like? With the ratio of intake/exhaust flow of the 2V head already being so even would you even bother changing the exhaust cam?

I know there are a ton of other things to improve, but a set of intake cams, or all four cams would be pretty easy to install during a belt service or valve adjustment service.

Thanks for your time,

Aaron

 

If you're planning to add an ECU why not add EFI and have any cam you please? its really just replacing the injectors and I think Nick has bolt-on kits, maybe other too. That whole CIS stuff in front of the manifold is costing you like 15-20hp all by itself in flow restriction....so removing it is a win-win.

The flow goes up with lift because the heads were designed for early carb cams, I don't recall of the top of my head but like.350 lift and 245-250 [email protected]?...which is really where you want to be, 360...370 maybe max as much more lift and you run into trouble with the shims popping out and more duration the carbs are unhappy....but with efi you could probably go say 270 and be ok.

Its been a while but since I've thought a lot about this stuff, a little rusty. Not the answer you asked for but what i would suggest....keeping CIS, yeah, 230 deg and 350-360 lift sounds right.....have a look at the 911 world, I remember there being a bunch of CIS optimized stuff that should point you in the right direction duration wise.

 

The shop is working on my stuff...has a few calls. They started with the crank and the rods measured, they have the rod journal numbers and are ready to go but the mains...they were a bit weird. The block was line bored/honed last build but there is now some variation...stress relax? last shops error? something I did? anyway we settled on they will take the crank to the max of the -.010 spec farther than matching it to the bearings. I'll pick it up put the heads on and see if a lapping bar sorts it out....I suspect it will. If not it will go back with the heads on for a new linebore. Hopefully have it this week sometime.

While I wait as I said I've been looking at ECU stuff. The ECU I have (enginelab.net EL129) lets you set it up to do literally anything you please. One thing I pleased was screen that shows me the MAP (manifold pressure) for each cylinder so when its time to sync the TBs I just pull up this screen and turn the screws until they are all reading 0 error, way easier than screwing around all day with an airflow gauge. I also use the data to let the ECU automatically adjust each cylinder's fuel mixture to compensate of TB sync errors so sync'd or not the engine runs pretty much the same which was one or my biggest concerns with 12 TBs. Pretty proud of that, so Yay me.

This is possible because I have I have a separate MAP sensors for each cylinder. Way back I had a custom board made with 12 sensors (its designed to do 2-12, you can literally just saw the board to the number you want) then it sends the strongest signal (the active cylinder) to the ECU. It really works good, better than I even hoped and is something I'd suggest for anyone with an ITB setup, way better than connecting to a mini plenum or reading 1 cylinder or whatever....basically solves all the concerns with ITB for like $150 in parts (for a 12 cyl about 100 in parts for 8)


This was before I had do anything ECU, this was designed to work with any ECU. With the do everything ECU I'm able to look at the signal high speed and pull individual cylinder data out based on crank position and rpm (higher rpm means more lag in the signal) and it works up to about 3500 rpm and idle/cruise manifold pressures.

The ECU only has just so many input pins to connect to and MAP is pretty critical so sending it in directly as 1 signal is reliable and simple....but that limits me on the cylinder data. What I'm working on now is entering the 21 century and using the CAN buss. I have a 12 channel analog input box that should connect to the ECU over CAN so my plan is to still send the main signal directly to the ECU as I currently do but to also send the 12 individual reading to the ECU via CAN and get the cylinder fuel trim working at all rpm and throttle positions.

Now understand the only thing I know about CAN is the word CAN which is mostly why the expander box has been sitting on the shelf for 5 years....but I'm going to try. Originally I bought it thinking I'd use it for cylinder O2 readings which is a more direct way to do everything I've been talking about but it really makes the engine look messy and each sensor has a heater that draws 2 amps....hadn't really thought about it but that alone would eat 25% of what the alternator puts out. The big fuel pump pops 15A fuses, so its 20A, each injector 1A, so 12, each coil about 3-4A average so 30-40 there, fan is 20A I think.....and you see how driving at night becomes and issue. So no 12 O2 sensors seemed a good place to save power while making a much neater engine bay but reading the 12 MAP sensor seems a good enough substitute.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks Mk e! I was already on the same line of thinking and looking at Porsche 911 cams that are known to work with CIS. The Web 20/21 profile looks good.

Aaron

 

just watch the lift...not sure how 308/911 needs compare there as they don't have shims that can pop out

 

It's been a while...not sure where to start exactly

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Looking at the wires was hurting my head....so I moved to something I understood and replaced the fuel pump. Way back in like June 2017 I realized there was a fuel pressure problem and ordered a new pump then realized there was also a whole engine problem and parked. new pump installed, pressure problem should be sorted. Instructions say it should be on a 30A circuit, no wonder it was popping 15A fuses
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I'm using the AEM 044 type pump. It's smaller and more efficient than the old A1000, but flows really well. I think one will support 900 naturally aspirated gas whp. I'm currently at 678whp on E85 (requires 25% more fuel) with a base pressure around 45psi, and 61psi at full boost.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-50-1005?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAy579BRCPARIsAB6QoIYYxFdq2RuSlPCKbRaUSORIQcx-MSkPqYG94Zld4XzARRRGrksF_OgaAqs5EALw_wcB

Aaron

 

i remember looking at those and thinking it a bit small or close enough to the line to be something I'd worry about. 900hp +/- is the goal here but the injectors I have prefer 4 bar (58psi) but the pump is best (900hp)at 42psi iirc....it just seems too close but for sure it might have been fine. Also I'm using AN-10 pump to rail to regulator trying to keep pressure uniform... I just have 1 rail for all 12 injectors due to space constraints.

I originally picked the pump for the 24psi blower engine but it still seemed about right now...I did add pump speed control code to the ECU but haven't set it up yet, 100% for all conditions for now. Once I get the engine running again and a bit better I'll turn the pump speed down anywhere I can...just 1 more thing I haven't completely gotten to sort out yet but did confirm the control scheme works so its now just a matter of figuring out the best settings....so even if the pump ends up being oversize it won't do any real harm beyond the extra 1lb or so. I thought about making it closed loop, I have a fuel pressure sensor and the ECU is coded to self correct injector time for fuel pressure changes (which is why I didn't realize the pump was failing, it ran decent until the pressure got down into the 10-15 range)...but for now KISS (keep it simple stupid) seems right


Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I’ve made 700whp at 80psi with a A1000 in the past. I don’t know if they will do 1000hp at higher fuel pressure though. The import/tuner community has all but abandoned the A1000 for newer style pumps. Injector Dynamics has been promising an awesome brushless pump for several years, but I don’t think it’s available yet.

If you come up short consider using a Boost-a-Pump type device. My 1000hp MR2 runs dual in tank 255lph Walbro pumps (with the pressure bypass ports smashed shut) and I feed them 18 volts at anything over 1 bar boost (I run about 45psi on this 2.3 liter four cylinder).

 

I'm not going to make 1000hp (without nitrous anyway).....fingers crossed for 900....which means an honest 800 I suppose

 

I've been playing with data and playing with data, but I'm still sure you are the guy with the most old Ferrari motor engine sim data. How much 2V GTSi data do you have in your engine sim program? Does it spit out an "accurate" number of about 195hp? What does it spit out if you swap just the intake cams for something like 235 duration and .360 lift? What is your opinion on doing just the intake cams? That is what SNJ5 did on his Mondial years ago and it worked well (but was a carbureted 3.2 motor too (btw I bought that car and turned it into a 650hp beast)).

Aaron