What does your shifter feel like? | FerrariChat

What does your shifter feel like?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by aabryan, Nov 11, 2020.

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  1. aabryan

    aabryan Rookie

    Apr 23, 2012
    38
    Hi all,

    my car (88 3.2 Coupe) is a little tough to shift. It definitely does not pop out of gear or anything. After the initial effort there is an engagement and then a very very slight second click/engagement (the second could almost be in my head).

    I have only ever driven my mondi, so it’s what “normal” feels like. I’ve owned miatas, boxsters, and a ton of other sports cars (87 944 is the only other old-ish car). The mondi feel the hardest to get just right (expected) but also the hardest to get into gear.

    All if this is of course when the car is fully warmed through.

    my question what does your car feel like to shift? I want to be sure my clutch isn’t dragging/not fully disengaging/I’m not being hard on the car... I have the SNJ5/ATSAaron hot rod- being easy on the transmission during shifts is a bit of a goal. I’m very ginger with the car off the line and try to give it time between changes (rev matching of course).

    best,
    Andy

    Ps- any mondi owners in Richmond, va that want to meet up and maybe swap stories/keys let me know.
     
  2. jkstevens2

    jkstevens2 Formula Junior

    Aug 25, 2015
    278
    Winter Park, FL
    Full Name:
    JK Stevens
    Sounds like the shift shaft that turns into a fork to engage the gears is bent or slightly deformed. Its made out of hardened steel but it is possible to damage it and not have it engage the gears correctly. One time I got into a bad situation where my clutch went soft (clutch slave cylinder leaked) and I could not change gears. I ended up somehow getting the car into reverse but jammed the fork into the gears and could not pull it out of gear................what I am telling you is the previous owner made have had trans problems and the fork is slightly out of alignment or bent. Just a thought of where to start first.
     
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  3. aabryan

    aabryan Rookie

    Apr 23, 2012
    38
    So you’re saying in general it’s relatively easy to select gears... I’ll check what you’ve said. I think I may try to bleed the clutch first. Thanks for the help.
     
  4. aabryan

    aabryan Rookie

    Apr 23, 2012
    38
    Also does your transmission go into all gears with the engine off?
     
  5. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    The shift in mine is quite precise, but I would characterize it as a bit notchy, and the throws are fairly long. So it would not be like the other cars you mention, but it is not hard to shift.

    A few things to consider. Use Redline MTL. Most use Redline 75W90ns, but the slightly lighter weight MTL can improve things noticeably.

    The shifter has a long shaft that goes to the shift shaft that goes into the transmission. The long shaft has two bushings, one near the shifter and one at the shift shaft. If these are worn you will not be getting the alignment you need. A little slop translates into quite a bit of rotational movement of the shaft. The rear shift shaft coupling is accessible under the car after removing the sheet metal belly pan, and one could inspect and wiggle to see if is snug, or the rubber bush part showing any deterioration.

    The shift shaft into the transmission affixes internally by one pinch bolt, and a tiny amount adjustment here makes a big difference. This can only be adjusted by removing the transmission pan.

    Do not try to shift the car when it is off, without pressing the clutch. Trying too hard to shift will move that pinch bolt and get you out of adjustment. Racers who shift hard have to adjust this quite regularly, it is not uncommon.

    So I would try the Redline MTL and see if you get lucky. Then inspect for worn bushings, and then do the gear box adjustment. I did mine myself while replacing the shift shaft seals and the rear bushing while I was in there and when you look in the gearbox and have a friend or friendly spouse shift while you see things move around, it s clear how this works and you can see how the various alignments make sense. My car shifted very well before I adjusted, a tad harder and balky from 4th to 5th than in the other gears, but shifts perfectly through all gears after getting this set up right.
     
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  6. aabryan

    aabryan Rookie

    Apr 23, 2012
    38
    Thanks for the post! PO (ATSAaron) Did do the transmission fluid during the build with redline -also did the clutch slave. I’ll be it’s an alignment issue, but I plan on bleeding the slave and making sure the fluid is topped up first... Then I guess belly pan bushings and then ultimately drop the pan. This is a wonderful step by step. Thank you.
     
  7. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    #7 moysiuan, Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
    http://www.dtmpower.com/ferrari308and328gearboxalignment

    I found this write up very helpful to understand how the gearbox alignment works. I only adjusted to make sure the rotational alignment was ideal ie. the three bell crank levers all lined up properly as per the article (as I had to remove the shift shaft to replace the seals, this adjustment is not optional). But I checked the other alignments in accordance with the writeup and saw nothing amiss and everything moved around with the expected alignments when my helper was shifting. You do not need the jig to retain the ball and springs as mentioned in the article to do the basic pinch bolt adjustment, but I did buy the tool from Unobtanium just in case I needed to do some of the other adjustments.

    There is a second rubber type of bushing on the shaft near the shifter, but you have to remove the switch panel and underlying console to see it. Not hard to do just a bit fussy with some small screws and being careful with removing and reinstalling some of the various wire connectors to the switches and such to move the console out of the way. Then you can inspect the rubber bushing in there as well, although, the rear one near the engine transmission has more exposure to oil leaking from the shift shaft seals and from other engine leaks, and weather exposure and would tend to be the one wearing first. I changed my rear bushing, but the original was actually in good shape. The front one looked fine and I left it be. My car is a 1988 Mondial 3.2 Cab with about 70,000km, so that gives an indication that not so much wear is apparent at that level of mileage. My car is heated/cooled garage stored and not driven in the rain much, so that probably helps the life of the componentry as well. It is also possible that the shaft seals and bushings had been changed out previously the the first owner, but I had the service records and no sign of that although it did appear someone scratched a faint small line on the shift shaft as a position marker so it may have been adjusted before.

    While in the console area, I also put some grease on the shaft as it enters the aluminum shifter base (and at the front where it pokes out on the front of the aluminum casting as well. There are metal insert bushings in the aluminum casting as well, but one would have to remove the whole shifter assembly to take apart and rebuild. I did not see any sign of wear in the casting bushing when moving the shifter around, so just a clean and inspect outcome for me. Probably putting fresh grease will save the casting bushings from wear over time.

    Also with the shift gate off, vacuum out any debris or crud that no doubt has fallen into our otherwise lovely open gated shifter, wipe around in there with a cloth. Maybe just take off the shift knob and shift gate without any of the the other console related things I mentioned, and clean things up in there as a further check before doing other more complicated things. You might just have some debris in there. I got a long artist brush with some grease, and lubed up the shifter ball and stuff in there.
     
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  8. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    I did a clutch slave bleed with the Motive pressure bleeder (at a low pressure and patience), and had no issues. Also do my abs brakes with this as well.
    https://www.motiveproducts.com/collections/import-power-bleeder-kits/products/0100-european-bleeder
     
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  9. dmarti02

    dmarti02 Karting

    Jun 22, 2014
    52
    Haverford, Pennsylvania
    Full Name:
    Doug
    I'm also new to a Mondial and would agree that gear changing is quite a bit different than the cars mentioned (miata, 944, and boxster). Your description doesn't actually sound that far off from my experience. For whatever reason, it seems to be happiest shifting the higher in the rev range when you are pushing the car, but a little heavier around in stop and go traffic. Obviously, mine may need adjustment too, but I have this sneaking suspicion that this is the nature of the car.
     
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  10. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    #10 moysiuan, Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
    We need to have a giant Mondial gathering and compare the shift quality! It is hard in isolation to understand what is "normal" on older cars, some with worn syncros, etc. But I think smooth shifting, but notchy is the norm, I tend to "place" the shift with a light touch rather than treating it like an American car's Muncie rockcrusher. Most cars with a shift rod (rather than cables like the t) and good condition of various bushings should shift tight and clean if all is in order. I do not have the typical cold second gear problem, the MTL is probably important for that. I drive the car til freezing temps, so I know about cold shift performance, and it is fine, so in my smaple of one, I can confirm these cars can shift well enough, if not having superior mechanical feel to other marques. The complete solving for a slightly balking 4 to 5 shift confirms an absolutely miniscule adjustment of the shift shaft made it right.
     
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  11. aabryan

    aabryan Rookie

    Apr 23, 2012
    38
    I can actually get second gear pretty easily. I’m just worried the mechanical feel is too mechanical (and I may be wearing my synchros). My 4 to 5 and 5 to 4 are actually the best shifts.
     
  12. JLF

    JLF Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 8, 2009
    1,635
    The shift cable thing is a poor design so right out of the box it’s not gonna be fantastic. I have no 2nd gear until the trans is up to temp. And the gear lever takes a firm push or pull to get it into gear. I’ve had it checked out and adjusted by a couple of good ferrari shops and they both say the way mine is is pretty common to this transmission and all is well.
    I use Amsoil because I’m more interested in protection and longevity than making it shift easier.
     
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  13. ronfrohock

    ronfrohock F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 16, 2004
    3,919
    MA
    Full Name:
    Ron Frohock
    I don’t even try for second until everything is warmed up.
    Shifting in my car is precise and deliberate. I had it adjusted by an 75+ year old lifetime Ferrari trained genius and it’s been perfect sense.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  14. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    With a shift cable you must have the Mondial T.

    I tried Amsoil on my 3.2 just for an experiment, and the shift was awful, balky second gear, etc. There is no issue with transmission longevity with Mtl, it has been used by many and recommended by some of the Ferrari mechanics on FChat, and there are ample technical reasons why it is fine based on the actual design of the transaxle and transmission gears. You could try MT90 if you want the higher viscosity.

    These cars can be very sensitive to the gear oil used.

    While you may have had adjustments, on the cable shifters really small adjustments make a difference. Someone might have to spend more time and trial and error than is reasonable in order to get it right. Probably something only a do it yourselfer can bother with.
     
  15. Statler

    Statler F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2011
    17,389
    My 86 3.2 is one of the nicest shifting cars I’ve driven. Clearly longer throw than a Miata but precise and “clicks” into each gear well. No force. 2nd has a “notch” when cold but that goes away when warm. Some days I skip to third until then some days I don’t (depends on outside temps mostly)
    They did some adjusting at the 30,000 mile service and it just got better for the next ten thousand miles.
     
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  16. Chris Mondi

    Chris Mondi Rookie

    Oct 30, 2018
    48
    Full Name:
    Chris Riedinger
    I switched to Redline MTL and the gear shifts are smooth as silk. Second gear used to be notchy when cold, that went away....


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  17. jkstevens2

    jkstevens2 Formula Junior

    Aug 25, 2015
    278
    Winter Park, FL
    Full Name:
    JK Stevens
    I want your mechanic on my list.:)
     

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