V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

This work?
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=12212

Or

https://standexelectronics.com/applications-markets/brake-fluid/

Probably direct or via, mouser, digikey or newark...

 

I'm sure the wilwood will not, the other sensor seals it looks like? I see an 0-ring so I'd need to figure out a vent

A guy on grassroots says a mid 60 jag sensor screws on to those masters....I guess that makes sense as they were originally AP I think an English company . Best pic I could find and seems a most excellent suggestion

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....and raised another question in my mind. The current caps seal the reservoir and use a rubber bellows thing I'm used to seeing on brakes....but newer plastic reservoirs with sensors, like the one stock on the 308 from '84 so not all that "newer" are not sealed...I guess the fluid has changed and no longer requires the air be kept out???? Never really thought about it before just now.



The bigger concern that popped into my mind is just how small these reservoir are and adding a float switch would take....1/3 looking at the pic? I liked these little masters because they at look like the ones used on the 308 rally cars, those were AP and more pricey but at a glance its period race race. I think they only hold about 2 full pedal pumps making brake fluid level checks pretty important I suppose.

speaking of which I opened the masters to try to figure out what size they were inside....this one looked like ****. I drained it, cleaned off the corrosion and refilled but man, the car has only been out of the garage to move it from 1 bay to another...don't really understand this. The other 2 looked find...I don't know.

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Back on wires I went to put up the fuse box...hmmmm...wonder where I put the screws? After about 30-40 minutes of searching around the shop I dug them out of this box.....I hate when that happens but that's what happens when a project goes 13+ years I guess.

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I think you've jumped the shark - forget about the sensors. You're not a soccer mom in an SUV who needs a light on the dashboard to remind her to get the car serviced...

 

BTW Mark, I love the master cylinder set up - is that a modified pedal box, or did you fabricate it from scratch?

 

Most of my cars I've never changed the brake fluid...... Image Unavailable, Please Login

Here's a sight I have not seen in many years...a mostly assembled 308 interior.

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There was a bit of soot from the fire....here's the water after cleaning 1, just 1 seat bottom, not the whole seat, just the bottom.

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Then for those that don't know, Ferrari carpet is wool, real wool and apparently also really delicious, Ironically the most damaged carper pieces are the ones I removed from the car so I wouldn't damage them while working.

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modified
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Just trying to wrap up/clean up anything and everything I can

 

Oh, I get where you're coming from - I'm the worst offender at "mission creep".

 

That's fantastic! Have you got the twirly knobby thing for bias?

 

Its got a couple of them. An adjustable balance bar and adjustable proportioning valve.....I've not decided yet whether to git an on the fly adjustment knob for either to the driver.....I'll see how it goes and then decide.

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Trying to move through the list.....

The wheel position sensor are wired reading correctly.

The Oil Pressure transducer is wired and reading correctly

The water Temp gauge repondes correctly (same as oil pres, the ECU reads a modern sensor then drives the gauge)

The oil pressure warning light works.

The slow down, aka Malfunction Indicator works.

The ECU is now reading the OEM oil temp sensor which took a little thought as its an 8V analog setup and the ECU is 5V digital but voltage divider made with a couple 2.2K resistors I had did the trick....high enough resistance to be basically invisible to the gauge and low enough resistance to be basically invisible to the ECU which has a 100k 5V pullup on all the analog inputs.....a "5V pull up" is a connection to a 5V supply, usually with big number resistor so it generally won't disturb what its trying to measure but can make it easier to use the input for switches and such...but makes it harder to use the input with old school analog shi...items

I got the ECu to read the 8V analog veglia oil temp sensor and not mess up the gauge reading and not burn out the ecu input pin.......its simple little 2:1 voltage divider that cuts the 0-8V signal to 0-4V and is high enough resistance to be basically invisible to the gauge and low enough resistance to be invisible to the ECU. Then resistors will break easily so I use the wire and heat shrink for structure......analog shi.......

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One of my go-to apps for that stuff is electrodoc...

https://electrodoc.it/electrodoc/

 

Spent a little time staring at the pinout sheet in that last pic I posted....as I run out of pretty much every kind on I/O pin it appears to be time to optimize usage a bit better. Stuff like some digital input pin have pullups and some don't, the clutch pedal switch would love to have one, but the pin left for it doesn't while the front wheel sensors pins have pullups but those sensors don't need it. It looks like about 1/2 dozen pins should move.

Also the ECU has 2 built in WBO2 controllers but like everything in this ECU they need a model of some sort to be written to configure them. Last go I decided to not mess with it and just used a pair of external O2 controllers but now I think I'm trusting what I'm seeing from the NBO2 sensors enough to switch the WB sensors to the internal controllers. I think this is the last of the wiring items on the to-do list.....I'm going to need the block back soon.

 

More slow going getting the ECU's internal WBO2 controllers working. The guy who owns the ECU company shared a few models and this is one of them but he works in scripting and I don't so I had to figure that out a bit to get the model to built....then try to figure out what it does exactly. I think I have it it, at least mostly, it seems to be mostly working but I suspect I have something pinned wrong as it settles at .996 lambda sitting in open air which is clearly not right.
Now my plan was to roll the push mower over and stick the sensor in the exhaust to test it but the external controller sensor that should be working fine is not giving me a reading, it pins at 1.3 lambda in open air but doesn't change in the mower exhaust....that could be the truth I guess ....the push mower doesn't have a choke I can get to easily....gave up for the night.

 

Use a propane torch to test a wide band. Don’t light it and the sensor should pick up the gas.

 

Tried that, kind of.... it was just opened with the gas flowing across it...tomorrow I'll put it in small plastic bottle so I can be sure the O2 is out

 

Just putting the sensor in the gas flow should have made it show pretty rich like .7 lambda.

 

A couple long days filled with confusion later and the onboard WBO2 controllers are MOSTLY working

The innovate controller I was using lst run wasn't working now because it was mislabeled....there is a good chance all my data from that time is flipped bank to bank. Easy enough.

I had all kinds of things to sort with the on-board stuff. I'm pretty sure the model I downloaded was a simulator test only kind of thing and has never actually worked with a real O2 sensor....I need to confirm that but for sure it wasn't behaving in a very useful way for me. That was for sure confusing me but was not the biggest issue which was a sensor/wiring problem that took a while to find because I was sure the model wasn't doing what it should.

So, I have a pair of innovate LC-2 WB setups. They use a bosch 7057 sensor and for whatever reason I had a 3rd sensor which was also 7057. When I googled AEM 4.9 sensor I found it was a 17025 which is pinned differently so I adjusted my wiring accordingly....everyone seems to call the pins different names that I'm sure make sense to THEM, but I just went by the pinouts......and 2 days later realized that while all the new AEM stuff is 4.9, they spec a 4.2 sensor for the infinity ECUs so I had it connected wrong.....and the pins of the 7057 4.9 sensor match the 4.2 so it should have been easy.

That sort I spent today taking reading on my O2 sensor tester......a mt dew bottle, and propane supply. One sensor is the innovate and one driving on the ECU.

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My struggle was getting the controller tuned....and I've yet to really succeed. I get it looking good going lean to rich

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but then rch to lean it wants to "ring" or oscillate out of control

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but if I tune to never oscillate then it often never matches the properly (cyan well above red)

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And that is where the night ended. I have readings but there is a bit more work to be done. I suspect that internally the ECU is adjusting the gain on the sensor at lambda=1 from 8 to 17 and then back to improve resolution over the range and that is causing my tuning issue...which brings me back to I don't believe the model I downloaded and have pretty heavily modified at this point ever ran a real sensor.



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I made a few changes to cut the heater and reset the PID on over temp condition and put the PID values in a table so under temp/over temp can be tuned different and it seems pretty good now.
I pulled a log of the lambda values going full rich to full lean over 10 minutes or so with both the onboard and innovate (that I recalibrate just before the run) and I don't match everywhere.....but that's a simple table to adjust. Maybe tweak it a bit more then pull another log or 2 then switch sensors and do it again and its ready for prime time.

 

I've been tearing my hair out with controlling this stupid senor. Right now I've completely given up on smooth, continuous, elegant solutions and its total brute force with 3 separate control schemes, the 2 PID variables each in 2d tables and me just plain forcing the signal I want and expect. Like the Borg...you will comply

The musical sensors game showed me that 2 of the 3 sensors were no good to start with....the only good one was the one I connected to the innovate LC-2, when I tried either or the other on it I got output errors. But this is not the part of the sensor I'm having control issues with and the know good one acts just like the now known bad ones.

hmmmm.....the 3 sensors I have (well 1 now) are all 7057, short for 0258007057 which has the standard bosch 4.9 lsu connector but is in fact a 4.2 sensor. reading the LC-2 instructions it says it works with both.....mine came with the 4.2 sensors. what the???...wait...the "new sensor" I bought for the ECU change on this car, the M800 install, that was way I pulled the car into the shop, the V12 started in '07 so this had to be'06....4.9 sensors didn't come out until '09 so it had to be a 4.2.

This knowledge may change things a bit.....a pair of actual 4.9 sensors will be here Friday, hopefully that sorts out these control issues. I've been kind of hacking stuff into and out of the model....maybe use the time to pretty it up a bit so I'm restarting the work in an orderly state.

 

Ok then. Now that I have an actual 4.9 sensor connected instead of a 4.2 I thought was a 4.9 the thing is dead stable with a simple, normal PID setup...DOH!

Speaking of dead, the one 4.2 I thought was working is really just spitting out gibberish....it moves up and down in response to a change in O2 but not in the way it should. I'm not certain the cal is right on the new sensor but I am certain then lawn mower isn't >1.3 and that and that I can get a bottle filled with pretty much straight propane. The new sensor put the mower at 0.8 which seems rich but....maybe. Just need to wire up the 2nd sensor and merge this new stuff into the main model and O2 sensors are done.
That means I really had no idea at all which mixture I was running when last the engine ran.....

 

I think the Bosch part number for the common 4.2 is 17013 and the 4.9 is 17025. Orielly Auto usually has one of each in stock.

 

the 4.9s I bought are the 17025 but my 4.2's were 0258007057, 7057 for short I guess. What got me was the connector LOOKs the same in pics....but the 4.9 is about 1/3 smaller so I just didn't realize I didn't have 4.9 sensors. Sorted now though...the only thing left is I will want to confirm the 1.0 point against a NB senor that really can't be wrong once its running to now I've got everything setup right.

Getting the ECU's internal WB controllers on-line means less stuff to stuff under the truck panel, which I think after I wired the 2nd sensor I'm ready to button up

Kind of running out of fill-in work, I need to call the shop and find out why my block isn't done.

 

Fun with O2 sensors continues...but I think is mostly sorted. I'm pretty sure all the sensors that were installed when this engine was last running are trashed. Also one of my new genuine imitation bosch 4.9 sensors died....mostly died, its intermittent. I also learned to keep the charger on the battery....system voltage changes heater output it turns out.

At the moment I have a NB and a 4.9 connected and have plenty usable. The ECU has 100k 5v pullups on all AN pins which is not right to read a NBO2 sensor, but it seems work and with a new sensors is basically 0.2-1.2V output, so a 0.2V offset putting 1.0 lambda at 0.650V.

Then, and I'm trying to confirm this, the cj125 chip on the board appears setup for a 4.2 sensor....which I have little interest in using, but seem ok with the 4.9 but the calibration is off. I get an output of 0.04-4.03V full right (shrouded in propane) to full lean (open air) and with the NB sensor telling me where 1.0 lambda is at about 1.1V (I may see if I can get a scope on the 4.9 sensor nerst pin just to be sure). I plotted the cal info from the bosch data sheet with V on the x axis and its linear (r^2>.99) though the rich region which is what I care about so I adjusted the calibration table to put 1.1V at 1.0 lambda and rescaled to put my .04V at there min output of .192V, then same on the other side of 1.0 knowing that isn't linear so anything leaner than about 1.5L is not actually calibrated but also not important to me.

All that done I'm pretty confident the mower I've been using as my sanity check is 1.1 lambda and covering the carb with my hand produces the expected responses.

Now I need my block back, called the machine shop this morning, waiting for a call back.

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The machineshop foreman's been out a couple days, they should have an update for me today. I would really like to put the engine back together......a sink arrived the other day so not sure how much longer I can stay out of the basement.

The replacement WBO2 sensor came so both are working now. I couldn't help but play with the settings a little more so now they are working more better. I just need to spend a little time looking at the full model to be sure everything that was looking for the external innovate sensors is now looking at internal sensors. Also remembered I never calibrated the water temp gauge which is now controlled by the ECU so I took care of that.

I think this now just leave the exhaust valve controller to setup but I'm not completely sure where I want to mount it. I think I'll run wires long enough to reach any reasonable location so I can get on with zip tying the harness and mounting the ecu, relay and fuss blocks. Then the center console is in place but not actually installed and few other things to deal with up there....I guess at least a week checking and fixing everything cabin related....all important I guess but irrelevant when there is no engine so hopefully there is good news from the shop soon, the guy I talked to when I called sounded completely overwhelmed but hopefully I'm near the front of the line at this point.