Procedure to cure a 355 Spider roof that does not close properly due to old fluid

joe1973 · Apr 30, 2017

If your straps are weak, the folds may not be proper and hence causing your problem. Observe the closing procedure and watch especially the 2nd and 3rd 'ribs' of the sunroof. If they sag instead of staying up and folding the textile below it you may need to push up with a finger to prop up for few seconds then you can let go. This happens to my roof on occasion and if I don't catch I get the problem as you with the arms running into the back of the seats despite them being forward in the process.

mathewmark5 · May 7, 2017

Just tried it and it worked! Thany you!

joe1973 · May 7, 2017

If you look carefully at the roof you can see if the straps are torn or loose. Your call if you wish to fix or use the finger assist method.

Ari Paul · May 17, 2020

How do you bleed the SECONDARY cylinders???!!!

I have followed this procedure exactly and my primary cylinders work perfectly, but my secondary cylinders never move with power, and I can easily move them in and out like they are empty with no fluid!!

Please help!!!

khcompt · Dec 4, 2020

FloridaF355 said: ↑

JGV - The only thing that looked like an earth I saw was the bolt that connects all those black plastic connectors to the bulkhead. I tightened it and sprayed with WD40 at the same time as I undid all the connectors and sprayed them. So I'm not sure exactly what I did to solve the problem, but since I did that it has worked like a charm.

If you have a working solenoid (you say you put 12V over it and it clicked), and plenty of clean fluid in the pipes, then it seems to me that either your ECU is not sending a signal, or there is a problem in your electrical connections that is preventing the solenoid engaging.

I was keen to check all the low cost elements first and rule them out before worrying about the expensive components. By checking no wires were cut or trapped, no connectors had a dry or corroded joint, and the earth bolt (if that's what it is) was clean, I got it working. My problem was intermittent, which in my simple mind, made me think a loose earth was a likely culprit.

Hope you track down your problem.
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FloridaF355 said: ↑

What do you mean by "to put in phase both of the primary cylinders, probably I left a bit of air in the system?"

I'm not an expert in hydraulics, but I would imagine that if you leave air in it will rise up to the highest point and your secondary cylinders won't work.

I would not crack open the secondary cylinders if I were you. They are sealed units and subject to a lot of pressure. Assuming your system is sealed (no split tubes, no oil leaking from any cylinders) you just need to push the rams in on the secondaries and bleed the system so you've drawn so much fluid out of the LH bleed nipple, filling the reservoir up repeatedly (as you would if you were bleeding brakes after a fluid change) so that there are no air bubbles left in the system. When you run the system 4 or 5 times with all the bleed screws closed it should equal out the pressure between the left and right primaries, but no air should be getting it.
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FloridaF355 said: ↑

Flushing out the old, sticky hydraulic oil and bleeding the system.

My 355 Spider roof now works like a charm. Roof closes all the way (I thought it was designed to stop 10 inches from closed. Its not. The roof closes all the way if your secondary cylinders are working properly.) The roof mechanism clears the seat belt mounts by several inches.

The culprit was old hydraulic fluid that had become gummy. I flushed it out using the procedure below, and now the roof works better than ever. Im delighted that I dont have an expensive problem with the cylinders.

Flushing and Bleeding Procedure.

Notes

Having recently replaced the hydraulic fluid reservoir I noticed on the test cycles that the secondary cylinders were not functioning at all. All the work of raising and lowering the convertible top was being done by the primary cylinders. I had never noticed this before, and just assumed that the roof was working fine, although I had to pull the roof down for the final 10 inches. Forum posts suggested that the central support bar across the roof may be bent. Mine was not. I decided to try bleeding the system.

This task is covered on Page H80 of volume three of the workshop manual, although I spent hours translating the Italian and French columns to try to ascertain what the English was meant to say. There is a Ferrarichat post, dated 2/24/07, by Dcup who did a better job of describing the procedure than the workshop manual, but I think that more detail may be helpful to members who are not experts.

This task took me two days, mainly because several of the screws and bolts were almost inaccessible to a large person. If you have svelte feminine hands, or know what you are doing, you can probably do this in a couple of hours.

Tools:

13mm socket and ratchet
17mm closed-end ratcheting spanner
13mm closed end spanner
7mm open ended spanner
Bleed kit.
#4 Allen key
#6 Allen key

Parts:

Mercedes ZH-M hydraulic fluid. Some have said use regular jack oil. Maybe thats fine, but the Mercedes fluid is what the Ferrari dealer uses and costs $14 a liter, which is not bad. You will only need a single one liter bottle for this job.

Procedure:

Before you can get close to step one in the workshop manual, several trim pieces need to be removed. The roof should be closed when you begin.

1. Remove Phillips head screw from LH lowermost mechanism shroud, then pull down to unclip from trim piece above.

2. Remove center trim above the parcel shelf by unscrewing the two Phillips head screws under the black screw covers, which lever up.

3. Remove LH upper trim by removing single Phillips head screw to the right of the cylinder, and then pushing the trim and leather cylinder cover back and up off the cylinder.

4. Remove RH upper trim. There are two Phillips head screws behind the cylinder and one to the right of the cylinder.

5. Remove the leather pump cover from between the seats by unscrewing the four Phillips head screws, two each side. You may need to remove the ECU cover immediately behind the RH seat in order to get at the RH screws. (This has two Phillips head screws and the bottom and then slides upwards to disengage a clip.) Pop out the emergency roof switch from the LH side and slide the pump cover forward to rest on the console.

6. Remove the two bolts going into the LH cylinder at the base of the cylinder body using a 17mm spanner.

7. Remove the allen headed bolt with a #4 key from the front of the fork on the LH cylinder.

8. Remove the bolt holding the base of the LH secondary cylinder to the roof frame with a 13mm socket.

9. Repeat for the RH side.

10. Disconnect both primary cylinders from the roof mechanism by pulling the fork from its mount and letting the cylinders rest freely.

11. Check the fluid level in the reservoir. Refill to the Max line if required. Do so by removing the two allen bolts from the brass compensation valve in front of the pump with a #6 allen key. Push the compensation valve body to one side to reveal the 13mm brass filler plug in the pump body. Undo the #1 bleed screw in the pump body. Undo the 13mm plug and fill the reservoir to the Max line with hydraulic fluid through a tube. Replace the plug. Close the #1 bleed screw.

12. Turn on the ignition and use the emergency roof switch to run through five cycles of opening and closing. The primary cylinders must be disconnected from the roof mechanism, as described above, before doing this. End the cycle with the pistons of both cylinders fully retracted, that is to say at their innermost position of travel.

13. Move the LH cylinder such that the fork is tucked up against the bulkhead; fork down, cylinder vertical, and the bleed nipple uppermost. Attach the bleed tube to the nipple. I found it convenient to tuck the bleed cup between the carpet and the bulkhead, in a rag, so that it couldnt move.

14. On the RH side of the car turn the RH primary cylinder upside down, such that the fork is in the air and the cylinder is resting on the parcel shelf.

15. By hand, push each small secondary cylinder in and out. Do they move freely? Does the pivot mechanism the fork end is attached to move freely? Lubricate the pivot (part of the roof frame) with WD40. If your secondary cylinders are seized, you may be looking at having to replace them, which I do not cover here. Mine moved freely. Leave them unattached until the end of the procedure.

16. Undo the #1 bleed screw on the side of the pump body. Three turns counter-clockwise is enough.

17. On the LH primary cylinder, open the bleed nipple with a 7mm open ended spanner.

18. Pull up on the fork of the RH primary cylinder. This should draw oil from the bleed nipple on the LH cylinder into the cup.

19. When the RH fork is fully extended, close the bleed nipple on the LH cylinder.

20. Check the fluid level in the reservoir. Given that you have drawn out fluid, it should now be below Max.

21. Refill to the Max line, using the procedure in 11.

22. Close the #1 bleed screw in the side of the pump body.

23. Undo #7 bleed screw on the bottom side of the compensation valve. There should be enough play in the tubes and wires that the compensation valve can be tilted towards you to access the bleed screw.

24. Unwedge the LH primary cylinder so it is free to move.

25. Turn the ignition on and use the emergency roof switch to extend the LH fork as far as it will go. Both the RH fork (which you pulled out) and the LH fork should now be at their outermost position of travel.

26. Close #7 bleed screw.

27. Run through 3 or 4 cycles using the emergency switch, keeping the button pressed for 2 seconds when the innermost or outermost points of travel are reached. This helps get air out of the system. Both forks should come in and out in unison. Finish with them fully retracted. Turn off ignition.

Now you have a decision to make. Undo the bleed pipe from the nipple, and examine the contents of the pipe and cup you just drained from the system. Mine was gummy, viscous and yellow. In fact, within a couple of minutes of being exposed to air, it started to solidify in the tubing. Compare to the new fluid. If the old fluid is in poor condition, repeat the bleeding procedure that began at step 11, being sure to refill the reservoir each time. You should get to a point where the fluid coming out is less viscous and approaching the quality of the new fluid you put it. If you were still getting air in the bleed pipe when the RH cylinder was fully extended, you will also have run through the bleed process again. I had no air in mine.

When youre done reassemble everything. Be careful with the 17mm bolts the ones on the outside of the cylinders are very fiddly to get back in. Make sure bleed screw #7 is tight before putting the compensation valve back.

When everything is back together, run the engine when running through cycles of putting the roof up and down so the battery doesnt get flat. With any luck your roof will be quicker and the secondary cylinders will now work, closing the roof all the way.
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Qavion · Dec 4, 2020

The secondary cylinders are basically self-bleeding. If the roof is not in the final stages of closing, the fluid in the secondary cylinders is unpressurised and is free to go back into the reservoir which it does when you pull back on the roof to initiate roof opening.
The secondary cylinders are meant to move in and out easily.

If the secondary cylinders are not activating during the final stages of closing then you may have one or more issues.
1) perhaps insufficient fluid?
2) the “F1” solenoid valve behind the driver is not working (in the left hand buttress area)
3) the triggering circuit for the F1 solenoid valve is not working.

The “F1” valve has nothing to do with the gearbox. It’s just what they call it in the manual. Check the wiring going to the solenoid valve. There was a case of some broken wires last year.

Let me know if you need a wiring diagram or further explanation.

khcompt · Dec 4, 2020

FloridaF355:

First off thanks very much for your very detailed 27 step procedure for flushing the hydraulic system on the 355 Spider roof. It is people like you that make this form so valuable.
When closing the roof the LH Guide Shoe (item # 43) contacted the drivers side seat belt holder an brake.
During trouble shooting of this issue I found the fluid reservoir for the roof hydraulic fluid below the low level Mark. As I followed your procedure I discovered the K hose to be leaking. I think this caused the roof to close slower on the driver's side than on the passenger side, which in turn caused the LH Guideto contact the seatbelt holder.
I replaced the hose with one that Chris at Cabriolet Roof Hoses Limited in the UK made up for me(CDN $ 107 including shipping)
With the new "K" hose installed (which runs from the hydraulic block to the LH main cylinder located behind the driver's seat) and at step 27 in your procedure, when the 2 primary cylinders were fully retracted and the system pressured up the "P" hose (item # 7) blew off. The hose stripped out of the compression type fitting that inserts into the connector at the Hydraulic block for the Solenoid (item # 27). The same failure as with the "K" hose.

My car is a 1999 so with 2 hoses now parting at the connection to the Solenoid valve I expect it is time to change all the hoses in the system.

Before doing so my question is, Is there a pressure regulator / relief valve in the roof hydraulic system to prevent system from over pressuring which could explain why the hoses are parting?

Please see the picture below of the parted "K" hose at the compression fitting.

Thanks

Ken

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Qavion · Dec 4, 2020

khcompt said: ↑

Is there a pressure regulator / relief valve in the roof hydraulic system to prevent system from over pressuring which could explain why the hoses are parting?
Click to expand...

The system has numerous safety valves. I'm not sure why you're getting blown hoses.

Here's the hydraulic system schematic

https://www.dropbox.com/t/5GfeRyIVnVFu2XKA

Link expires in 6 days

Qavion · Dec 4, 2020

"F1" solenoid valve c/o Fchatter "Boaf" showing broken wires:

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khcompt · Dec 4, 2020

Qavion said: ↑

The system has numerous safety valves. I'm not sure why you're getting blown hoses.

Here's the hydraulic system schematic

https://www.dropbox.com/t/5GfeRyIVnVFu2XKA

Link expires in 6 days
Click to expand...

Qavion:
Thanks a bunch for the schematic.

Qavion · Dec 4, 2020

It looks like the "195 bar unloading valve" should take care of overpressure when closing.

I wonder if it can be easily removed and checked at a hydraulic shop (assuming it can be identified). Having said that, if your secondary cylinders are also not working, you could have multiple issues.

khcompt · Dec 4, 2020

Reading the Top Hydraulics info on the hoses, they say if the coating is starting to peal off the hoses they are ready to fail. As this is the case on my hoses which I assume are original it looks like I will need to replace all 10 remaining hoses. I will do some further research on before ordering the full set.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Qavion · Dec 4, 2020

khcompt said: ↑

they say if the coating is starting to peel off the hoses they are ready to fail.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, Ken. Time to check mine

huzilulu · Dec 21, 2023

virendra said: ↑

Hi wonder if anyone has any suggestions.

I am working on a 355 with the following issue.

a) The fork would not lock into the stub when being closed on the passenger side (In a right hand drive car). Managed to get that sorted by the suggestions of adjusting the 3 mounting bolts.
b) Roof did not close all the way and I therefore tried to bleed the system .Followed all instructions as per the above post.

I got stuck at item 18 in the above post which says PULL the Piston of the RIGHT RAM OUT Manually to release oil from the LEFT RAM. . The RIGHT RAM is almost seized and can not be pulled open to release the oil from the left RAM. (strange as the roof did open and close with the motor even though it was slow).

The Left RAM is spewing out GUNK but just trickles of a few drops.

Followed the path of the path and opened a Pipe at the T junction where the Pipe T comes from the Right Ram and that too dropped out GUNK. Its possible that all pipes have this gunk.

Would someone know of a process of removing one pipe at a TIME and cleaning the guts of these tubes . Has anyone tried an air pressure gun to simply open 2 ends of each pipe , clean it and then refill with this fluid.

Is there a system of self priming if I were to release the oils one Ram at a time.

The owner keeps blowing the fuses and replacing them and I feel the motor could just die as its under too much pressure.

Finally What is the bleed screw No 7 referred to in item 23. Where is the location of this compensation valve . Is this the brass connector with about 8 pipes joining on the sides with an electric cable.

Right now its impossible to pull the fork of the RIGHT RAM and its just come out by about 2 inches.
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I am in the process of trying to flush and bleed my system - and am basically stuck in this same place... The emergency switch mvoes both primary rams to their full open and closed position, but once I try to do step 18 manually (pull RH ram open with LH ram with open bleed valve) I am unable to get it out past 2 inches or so... only a trickle of fluid (very thick) comes out the bleed valve... Has anyone had any luck with this step when the fluid is soo thick it wont allow the piston to be manually pulled out (related question: the LH piston also comes out about 2inches when I pull the RH piston manually - is this supposed to happen or should the LH stay fully retracted during the manual bleed step)???

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