365 GT 2+2 Gearbox rebuild | FerrariChat

365 GT 2+2 Gearbox rebuild

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Peter Lipman, Dec 24, 2020.

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  1. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    I am a new 365 GT 2+2 owner and am experiencing what i understand to be common which is the synchros being worn in the gearbox making shifting a grind, so to speak. Does anyone have experience rebuilding the gearbox for this issue? Which components on the main and lay shafts would be the candidates to replace? Is it difficult to disassemble and replace components? Any special tools needed? Better to have a pro do it? Any other advice? thanks
     
  2. shoreorthopod

    shoreorthopod Karting

    Oct 14, 2012
    152
    Have a pro do it.... these boxes can be very tricky...tom yang did mine a few years ago and it shifts like a dream
     
    Bowzer likes this.
  3. V12addict

    V12addict Formula Junior

    Jan 2, 2004
    293
    Agree, take the whole transmission out and do a full re build by a pro shop. You will be happier in the long run and the car deserves it.The 365 gt 2+2 is a fabulous car and you won't regret it.
     
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  4. Tegethoff

    Tegethoff Formula Junior

    Jul 19, 2014
    301
    Los Feliz
    Full Name:
    Adam
    #4 Tegethoff, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
    Generally, 3 of 521767 and 1 each of 521768, 521769 are required, but if there is severe wear , 3 of 522047 may be a good idea. All new bearings would be a smart move too.

    As previously mentioned, unless you have experience, specialty tools and technical information, get it done professionally. It's not rocket surgery, but it's complex enough that I wouldn't want to be R&Ring the tranny multiple times to get it right.

    Here's a pic with the sliders and rings highlighted, it doesn't include 5th which is on the output shaft, but it's basically the same parts and assembly.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Bowzer

    Bowzer Formula Junior

    Aug 3, 2016
    419
    MALTA
    Full Name:
    Marcus
    Send it to an experienced professional and you will love it for another 50 years if cared for. The car will be grateful for it and you can enjoy a true marvel of a car.
     
  6. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    This is very helpful. i am a little confused by one thing though. In my experience with worn synchros, it is the teeth that are worn down and rounded. I am having trouble understanding exactly the role of these synchro rings and why replacing them makes the gears sync better again.
     
  7. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,918
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    the synchros have a cone and this cone is connecting to the gears and bring them to the same rpm as the shaft. and after then the sliding sleeve will connect to the teeth.
    so the new synchros are a little thicker in the inside diameter becaus ethey are not worn out as used ones
     
  8. 330gt

    330gt Formula 3

    Nov 12, 2004
    1,982
    Seattle, WA
    Full Name:
    Kerry Chesbro
    Note, there are two different models of the 365 2+2 transmission, so be sure and use the correct parts manual that matches the car.
     
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  9. Tegethoff

    Tegethoff Formula Junior

    Jul 19, 2014
    301
    Los Feliz
    Full Name:
    Adam
    You are most likely thinking of a different style of synchronizer assembly. Like this image from a Tremec T5:
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    In this style assembly the blocker ring has "sacrificial" brass/bronze teeth that guide the slider onto the dog teeth of the gears. The blocker ring also acts as the clutch to match the differing speeds of shaft and gear.

    In your transmission and most older Ferrari transmissions, the sacrificial teeth are not present on the blocker ring, and the slider directly engages the dog teeth on the gear. I believe the slider is slightly softer than the gear and takes most of the wear.

    If you do have worn dog teeth, the entire gear needs to be replaced. This is why later designs from Getrag use a blocker ring with teeth as it helps prevent wear to the dog teeth. If the transmission has been operated for a long time with worn blocker rings, you may infact need new gears, especially 2nd and 3rd as they tend to take the brunt of full throttle shifts.
     
  10. hph1

    hph1 Rookie

    Jun 28, 2020
    8
    Hi all,
    I'm facing the same issue as described in this thread, these answers were already very helpful. Does anyone know the best way to disassemble the gearbox? Is it necessary to remove the engine before removing the gearbox or is there a more direct way to remove the gearbox? Possibly from the side of the rear axle? By removing the transmission shaft?
    Thanks a lot!
     
  11. shoreorthopod

    shoreorthopod Karting

    Oct 14, 2012
    152
    Engine DOES NOT NEED TO COME OUT...and if rear main bearing needs to be done would do it at same time Some interior pieces need to be removed but engine stays in
     
  12. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    I dropped the transmission and took it to a Ferrari shop to be rebuilt and just finished reinstalling it. I can give you detailed instructions as to how to get it out and back in. It is quite tricky as there is minimal clearance. In short, you disconnect the rear axles, disconnect the torque tube and shaft from the rear of the gearbox, slide the differential and torque tube all the way back (a couple of things to watch out for), disconnect the clutch linkage and bell housing, slide gearbox back and tip down and out. There is more to it but if you are interested, i can discuss further and send some pictures.
     
  13. hph1

    hph1 Rookie

    Jun 28, 2020
    8
    Thanks a lot for the answers! I'd be very happy for more instructions and some pictures. However I'm not just starting yet, but planning it for the next few months.
     
  14. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    Ok, here is a little more depth. after you disconnect the axles, you can tie them up and out of the way. when you slide the differential and torque tube back, it will move back off of its mounts so you need to find a way to support it and to raise and lower it as needed. as you move it back, it will bump into a fuel hose. Mine was original and ruptured, emptying my gas tanks. at the very rear you will bump into the handbrake assembly. that is far enough back. Next you can remove the chassis panel and tensioner that are at the rear of the gearbox. Next you can disconnect the clutch linkage, speedo cable and reverse light wires. In the cabin, you have to disassemble the shifter and remove the metal opening cover under the console. Next disconnect the bell housing. As you can see from my picture, i made a platform so that i could use a jack to lower the gearbox. I have a 4 foot lift. There is not enough total clearance back to front to simply drop the gearbox straight down and back up. once you move the gearbox back to clear the clutch, the rear will be back inside the torque tube. So you have to angle the gearbox downward in front and move it forward. you can raise up the differential and angle the torque tube down towards the front to facilitate this. It is all very very tight and so you move things an inch here and there till you wiggle it out. In my case, once slid back to clear the clutch, the gearbox jammed against the fiberglass tunnel and i had to chop out a little of the tunnel and then recover it afterwards. i also took 3/16 of the metal off of the sides of wings on the bell housing before reinstalling to keep it from jamming on the way back up. As i have said repeatedly, it is all very tight with very little clearance. But the good news is, i am up and running again and spring is here.
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  15. Bowzer

    Bowzer Formula Junior

    Aug 3, 2016
    419
    MALTA
    Full Name:
    Marcus
    365GT2+2 is a great car to drive and a huge part of that experience is the precise and nearly self placing gear shift while on the roll. have it done by a professional who knows them well and you will not regret it for the next 50 years ;-)
     
  16. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    car is driving beautifully.
     
  17. Tegethoff

    Tegethoff Formula Junior

    Jul 19, 2014
    301
    Los Feliz
    Full Name:
    Adam
    What was done?
     
  18. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
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    Peter Lipman
    if you read above, i removed the gearbox and sent it out to be rebuilt and reinstalled. I rebuilt the brake master cylinder, installed a new stainless steel exhaust and installed new rear shocks. Now working on resurrecting the A/C.
     
  19. Tegethoff

    Tegethoff Formula Junior

    Jul 19, 2014
    301
    Los Feliz
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    Adam
    Sorry, I meant specifically within the gear box, what was replaced, reconditioned, etc.
     
  20. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    synchros, major bearings, one of the sliders, all locking tabs, seals, rear bushing
     
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  21. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    everything washed, repainted, like new.
     
  22. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
  23. Tegethoff

    Tegethoff Formula Junior

    Jul 19, 2014
    301
    Los Feliz
    Full Name:
    Adam
    I suspected one of these when you first posted, looks great, glad to see it sorted
     
  24. Peter Lipman

    Peter Lipman Rookie

    Nov 24, 2020
    21
    Full Name:
    Peter Lipman
    turns out the sliders were fine . the synchros were ground to mud in the bottom of the gearbox. the previous owner clearly did not replace the oil.
     
  25. VinnieVintage

    VinnieVintage Rookie

    Oct 31, 2018
    44
    Mr. Lipman --

    What kind of condition was your car in when you purchased it?

    Did you update the rear shocks or go with the original system?

    Thanks
     

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