FAQ: Shopping for a used 360

Reddesire348 · Jun 5, 2019

Biggest lesson of all.... there is no such thing as a bargain when it comes to a Ferrari. Owners know exactly what they have and what it is worth and buyers ‘normally’ do plenty of homework to determine how to pick a good sound car. If it seems cheap rest assured there will be a dam good reason why?!?!
Sold my 348ts for top dollar as it was a really neat package. Far more than I paid for it. Thought I made a killing until I went to buy my 360 Manual Spider (red, beige interior). Had to pay top dollar to get the car I wanted and and as good a package as what I had sold. Accept this reality and you will get the car of your dreams.

Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

beemerb0y · Oct 23, 2019

Very good info here as well: http://ferraridiy.com/ferrari-360-guide-to-maintenance-costs/

beemerb0y · Oct 23, 2019

More good reads regarding the F1 trans:
https://aldousvoice.com/2013/01/30/ferrari-360-f1-system/

https://aldousvoice.com/2012/09/18/ferrari-360-f1-pump-relay-preventative-maintenance/

ceb39 · Oct 24, 2019

I had the 30 amp relay in my 2001 369 Modena replaced with a 50 amp unit in 2017. Labor was $210, and parts were $280. This was done at a shop which works on Ferrari's and part of the annual service I was having done.

The previous owner of the car, installed a gauge which indicated when the ECU and F1 relay were on. Based upon my experience before and after the relay switch neither the ECU or relay every stayed on more that four seconds.

JRE · Mar 2, 2020

Thanks to ALL for the info in this thread...

Felix Yuen · May 2, 2020

I dont know if you all agree but the spider will be less value in the future than the hardtop
it doesn't have the iconic shape as the hardtop
soft top mechanical issue is $$
build # are much higher with a spider than hardtop.

with that being said … I am on the hunt for a hardtop F1 F360 ..!!

Reddesire348 · May 2, 2020

Not sure if many would agree with you at all. The soft-top (particularly manual) is much rarer and in greater demand than hard tops so it a supply/demand thing. Shape wise with the top down one could argue which is the more iconic shape. Any cost associated with the repair of the soft top (had my 2004 3 years now and it’s been fine) is far outweighed by the costs of repairing the F1 if that goes. Neither are considered achilles heals on a 360 anyway.

JRE · May 4, 2020

Top Down; Price Up.

That theory works with cars too.

Skidkid · May 9, 2020

Felix Yuen said: ↑

I dont know if you all agree but the spider will be less value in the future than the hardtop
it doesn't have the iconic shape as the hardtop
soft top mechanical issue is $$
build # are much higher with a spider than hardtop.

with that being said … I am on the hunt for a hardtop F1 F360 ..!!
Click to expand...

And you are incorrect, there are more Modena than Spider.

Herbert Hamber · Aug 1, 2020

Excellent Info, Thank you !!

one4torque · Aug 3, 2020

skid-kid... I wonder what the delta is in #'s of coupe vers drop top that are still road going.... considering the high attrition rate of 360's..... (as seen on co-part, etc..)

Ron328 · Aug 15, 2020

8800 coupes. 7565 Spiders.

Ron328 · Aug 15, 2020

Skidkid said: ↑

Come on guys, get over the never ending internet urban legend about F1 cost. As someone who owned an F1 for over a decade I can tell you that I spent less than $2000 more than a manual AND that assumes that the manual had a maintenance cost of $0. The difference pales in comparison to the regular maintenance costs and isn't even a consideration.
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I've owned my 360 for 6 years. I've tracked it. Never had F1 issue. I change the relay every 2 years. Change the hydraulic fluid every 3 years. 3 mos ago, I changed the pump just bec I got a new unit for less than half the price and RTGT dropped their labor rate during the height of the pandemic.

Brian Roman · Dec 19, 2020

Camdon53 said: ↑

A new thread seeking advice about buying a used 360 seems to pop up several times a week so perhaps some of that can be consolidated here for a while. I recently bought a wonderful ’02 F1 coupe after gathering information and shopping for over a year. The following reflects some of what I discovered and concluded during my adventure plus some observations made since. I’m sure others will add differing observations and conclusions over time.

Right up front I must admit a significant prejudice which permeates all my conclusions. I believe these cars are meant to be driven – hard and often according to Enzo and the people who create them. My favorite analogy for not driving your Ferrari is that it’s like having a supermodel girlfriend but refusing to do her so she is saved for the next guy. If your main concerns are prestige and resale value and you’re not going to enjoy driving your 360 regularly, some of my conclusions may not apply.

A lot of detailed information was omitted for brevity (and it’s still too long!). Therefore, serious prospective buyers should continue digging and asking questions and drawing their own conclusions. Any advice offered here (including mine) should be regarded skeptically and applied only in light of individual situation and taste.

1. What’s the best 360 to get? Some 360 model years better than others?

It appears all 360s were NOT created equal but can be made so with some effort. As with all Ferrari street cars, there were problems with earlier models that were corrected over time through factory campaigns and upgrades. Some issues are quite serious because failure involves very significant damage and repair costs, such as the cam variator shaft, cracking of the rear frame, cracking motor & transmission mounts, starter ring gear, and transmission throwout bearing & seal. Some of the lesser issues are suspension bushings, several fluid leaks, major ABS and F1 transmission ECU & software upgrades.

All major issues and most minor ones were corrected by the ’02 model year. Upgrading the ’99-’01 cars was covered by factory warranty but only IF the early owner(s) used an authorized maintenance facility and/or cared enough to make sure all campaigns and upgrades were performed. I looked at several ’99-’01 cars whose owners claimed certain upgrades but had no documentation to back it up. I also found several instances where documentation appeared to indicate upgrades but careful examination of the car seemed otherwise. There are no pre-cats in the ’99 cars and some claim this adds a few HP but I found no empirical evidence of that.

Then there are the so-called “Euro cars” built for the European market but imported and modified for sale in the U.S. (identified by “B” instead of “A” in the 8th character of the VIN). These seem to be perfectly good cars assuming they have all the EPA and DOT paperwork to prove the “federalization” was done properly and legally. Without complete paperwork there can be real problems selling and registering these cars in some states. Because of the potential problem(s) these cars are typically priced noticeably lower than U.S. built cars.

I concluded that buying a Euro or a ’99-‘01 must be accompanied by significantly more work to determine what (if any) paperwork, upgrades and campaigns are still required and what the additional cost(s) might be. However, if (and it’s a big “IF&#8221 everything has truly been upgraded to latest factory standards, there is little or no real difference. My personal choice was to stick with ’02-’05 U.S. built cars and simply bypass the extra work and worry.

2. Should I insist on low miles to get a good 360?

If you’re main concerns are prestige, aesthetics and resale value, then yes. There appears to be an unspoken line at 9,999 miles. Below that is considered “low” while above is “high”. This obsession with low mileage used Ferraris is common and typically results in a premium at resale time.

However, if you’re going to enjoy the car like Enzo intended, it may be that low miles is more problematic than high miles. The 360 is way over-engineered for street driving so it takes a lot of miles (WAY more than 10K) to wear anything out. It appears the worst thing for a 360 is parking it and/or improper maintenance -- not high miles. Sitting undriven for long periods results in dry bearings and bushing surfaces, stiff & cracked hoses, dry & leaking seals, condensation corrosion inside and out, sedimentary deposits in the fluids, etc. A 6 year old car with 600 miles is likely to be nothing but trouble fixing all that stuff as soon as it’s driven much.

My personal choice was a car which averaged over 2500 miles a year (still pretty low) before I got it, and it’s running better and better the more I drive it.

3. What color combinations and options are best on a 360?

This is (or should be) pure personal preference. If your main concerns are prestige and resale value, then red, yellow and several shades of grigio (silver/grey) are the most popular exterior colors along with natural (tan) and black interiors. If you’re getting the car for YOU instead of the next guy and these colors are not for you, there are many other wonderful combinations available but you’ll have fewer cars to choose from.

There were lots of other options available to individualize these cars as well. There are 6-way adjustable power seats; the Daytona seats (great looking & more comfortable for most people); Scuderia fender shields (the original and quintessential Ferrari symbol); front & rear challenge grills (better engine cooling and much nicer rear look); contrasting color stripes, stitching and piping on the leather seats; leather door sills, rear shelf and headliner for the most elegant interior; a 6-disk CD changer; modular wheels and more. I observed relatively few heavily optioned 360s so it’s important to decide early which options are deal breakers for you. Lightly optioned cars are much more plentiful and always noticeably cheaper.

4. Which is best, Coupe or Spider?

Purely personal preference. The convertible top mechanism is complex and can be problematic but it gets mostly decent reviews. The coupes are always a little faster since they are stiffer and lighter, but the difference is not enough to matter for street driving. You should already know if you’re a coupe guy or a convertible guy so get the one you like best. Unless, of course, your main concerns are prestige and resale in which case the spiders seem to have an edge.

5. Which is best, F1 transmission or 6-speed manual?

Lots of opinions on this but it really boils down to personal preference. With all current factory upgrades in place, both manual and F1 seem to work exceedingly well in a 360. The F1 is more consistent and faster shifting and less effort in traffic (that’s why it’s used in Formula One). The manual guys don’t care about that and simply prefer to do their own shifting.

Clutch wear has proven to be the same for both under similar circumstances – either can be abused into premature failure and both can be driven properly to the same high mileage. The big factor in clutch wear seems to be the driving style of each individual owner. The F1 clutch should be adjusted by a trained and experienced pro using the factory SD2 or SD3 (soon to be SD4) computer for proper function and wear. Having an F1 clutch installed and/or adjusted any other way is asking for trouble.

FWIW, the F1 transmission is much more popular with nearly 80% of all 360s ordered that way. I found prices a little stronger for used F1 cars but some manual guys claim the opposite. Any prospective 360 owner should definitely drive both transmissions and decide for himself.

Even as a life long 3-peddle guy, my personal choice was the F1 after experiencing its astonishing smoothness and effortless precision. There was a major TCU (Transmission Control Unit) and F1 software upgrade for the ’02 model year which is another reason I prefer the ’02 and later cars.

6. Is an inspection needed even if the car seems “right”?

Abso-freakin-lootly! No matter who is peddling the car, a very thorough PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection) should be undertaken by an experienced and knowledgeable professional who is independent of the seller and who works regularly on 360s. These are not normal cars with normal issues. The inspection should include a compression test (get a psi reading on each cylinder) and leak-down test if suggested by the compression numbers (e.g., one cyl significantly lower than the others). They should pull the wheels for measurement of brake rotors and pads. They should check the condition (not just the level) of all fluids. All body panels should be carefully inspected inside and out for evidence of previous damage/repair. Tires, all the gadgets, spirited test drive, and lots more should be included.

If the car came with service records, give them to the PPI technician. Ideally you should receive back a detailed written report of everything they looked at and what they saw (the last one I got was 6 pages, single spaced). The cost for this typically runs between $350 and $500 which is dirt cheap compared to repair costs on these cars. Even if the car must be trucked to a competent shop independent of the seller, you should cheerfully thank the seller for allowing you to do that.

If the seller will not allow an inspection, my only advice is “Run Forest, Run!”. If the seller is a dealer and will only permit his shop to perform a PPI, ask yourself why. Not all dealers can be trusted that way so check him out thoroughly (and independently) before agreeing.

Finally, you should consider a personal inspection of any car you’re really serious about. Whether from a dealer or a private party, it just seems silly to buy a car like this without seeing it. The only exception might be a highly respected dealer who’s word you can absolutely trust. Again, there are few such dealers.

7. What other stuff should come with a 360?

A new 360 came with an excellent owner’s manual, service record manual, security system manual and several other manuals for optional equipment (like the CD player) in a leather pouch stored in the boot. Also stored in the boot was a leather pouched tool kit and emergency tire inflation bottle (unless the car was ordered with spare tire in the boot). There should be 2 keys and 3 remote FOBs (two black, one red master) and original paperwork giving the 4 digit ignition and radio security codes. Also try to get as much documentation as possible from all previous servicing of the car.

Apparently some people don’t care about this stuff and it often becomes separated from the car, but all of it can be replaced. The most important things are the owner’s manual (easy to replace) and the keys, FOBs & security codes (not so easy to replace). Service records are great and definitely help at resale time but a thorough PPI should be performed no matter what and will be more useful and telling anyway.

8. How/where do I find 360s for sale?

Lots of due diligence is needed here but it’s not difficult. The first thing is deciding what colors, options, miles, etc., you will be happy with. This is important because it’s silly to go through all this trouble and spend all the money only to wind up with something that’s not what you really want. Think about it and be sure where your limits are. Then comb every source you can find to get an idea of what’s available and asking prices. Those would be places like Ebay, DuPont Registry, Hemmings, AutoTrader, FerrariAds, CollectorCarTraderOnline, Ferrari Market Letter, and many, many more. The internet is your friend on this and you should have no trouble finding lots of listings. If there’s a Ferrari dealer nearby, you should check out whatever he’s got and get acquainted with the service manager.

Start making inquiries. The first thing you’ll notice is at least 75% of the cars you see advertised are not actually available. A lot less time is wasted if you stick with cars you might buy instead of wasting time chasing cars you don’t really want. For one thing, the experienced and reputable dealers (i.e., the ones you’d most like to deal with) can tell right away if you’re wasting their time (and hence your own).

9. How much should I pay for a good 360?

As above, LOTS of due diligence is needed to be assured of getting a good car at a fair price, and NOT all opinions and advice on FerrariChat are useful (including mine). Buying one of these cars is not the same as buying a Honda,

You should essentially be answering this question for yourself based on your own canvassing of the marketplace. Simply asking “How much should I pay?” on FerrariChat may be entertaining but results in limited useful information. Instead of listening to internet weenies like me, gather your own information by studying actual asking prices from actual sellers. Whatever anyone around here tells you today will likely change tomorrow anyway.

There is a wide range of asking prices but you might observe some general trends to help sort them out. For example, spider prices are generally higher than coupe prices, all else being equal. You might notice there is less turnover in coupes (fewer available) since people tend to keep their coupes longer than spider owners. It appears more cars are available and prices a bit softer during 4th and 1st quarters (winter). A lot more lightly optioned cars are available and their prices are generally lower than fully optioned cars. The earlier model years usually have lower prices than later years. A happy trend for us drivers is that higher mileage cars are generally cheaper than low mileage cars.

After making yourself an expert on asking prices and how they’re affected by colors, options, miles, condition, etc., you should carefully consider your budget. Be sure of the TOTAL you are actually willing to spend (incl. car, taxes, registration fees, inspections, shipping, etc.) and still have a minimum $10K cushion left for unexpected costs plus minimum $10K for the first year’s maintenance. If any of this seems excessive or is squeezing your budget, you might want to consider something besides a 360.

10. Should I pay cash, finance or lease?

You should probably settle this question according to your own particular situation keeping in mind that you are acquiring a rapidly depreciating asset. The general consensus is that paying cash for such an asset costs much less than any financing or lease arrangements. The best case for financing is if you consider liquidity of the unspent principal to be worth the additional cost of financing. The best case for leasing is if you can write it off as a business expense. Most agree that if the reason for financing or leasing is that you can’t afford to pay cash, you will be placing yourself at significant financial risk. One way or another, if you can’t afford to pay cash for your 360 perhaps you should wait until you can.

11. Should I buy from a dealer or a private party? What about auction sites like eBay?

After some digging I concluded eBay was not a serious option for me to buy a Ferrari. I found it an excellent source of information and leads to interesting cars, but not a secure and reliable way to actually buy one. As a matter of fact I located the car on eBay which I ultimately bought, but I went directly to the seller for the transaction. My observation was that many other sellers also considered eBay more of an advertising mechanism than a transaction mechanism. Perhaps others will chime in who see eBay as a more viable buying option.

There are plenty of nice sounding (emphasize “sounding&#8221 360s advertised by a variety of private sellers, unknown dealers and auction sites. There certainly are some nice cars at good prices among these sellers but remember the scammers and flakes reside here as well. There are also plenty of prominent and respected dealers scattered around the country who routinely sell Ferraris and other high end cars to out-of-state buyers. It’s pretty easy to identify these guys since there’s always plenty of feedback on them. The downside to high-end dealers is that their prices sometimes seem higher than private sellers and unknown dealers.

Regardless of the type of seller, it seems wise to proceed carefully and take all normal business precautions. Basically that means putting everyone’s serious intentions in writing. Anything involving money should certainly be in writing as to what it’s for, refundable or not under what conditions, etc. Legitimate dealers will never object to written agreements. In fact, most will insist on it. If a private party does not want his intentions or yours recorded, you should ask yourself why. The key element is really time – the extra few minutes to write up an agreement can’t possibly be a deal breaker to a serious seller (dealer or private) over a $100k car. Any time a seller pushes a little too hard to hurry things along for any reason, some skepticism may be in order.

As a buyer, you must be ready to pull as much weight as the seller. That means paying any expenses the seller did not have before you showed up (e.g., inspection, transportation, etc.). If you want the seller to “hold” a car (i.e., not sell it to someone else while you think about it or gather your finances or whatever), you should expect to pay a reasonable deposit (with a written agreement covering the details of course). This is where sticking to cars you’re serious about comes in handy – there’s nothing more aggravating to a serious seller than tire kickers who just want a free test drive in someone else’s Ferrari. You’ll have a lot more luck if you treat serious sellers the same way you would like to be treated.

My personal experience was that private sellers and unknown dealers seemed acceptable but I kept finding more cars available at large well known dealers. It also appeared large well known dealers would be easier to deal with by long distance since the chances of finding the right car locally were remote. I ultimately found the best car for me and bought it from one such Sports Car Company. I had no trouble checking into the dealer’s reputation as well as the independent shop for the PPI Bob Ileff. These guys are both major league pros and made the entire transaction smooth and worry free. In retrospect I concluded the time and uncertainty I saved by dealing with people like that were worth a LOT more than any premium I might have paid.
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There is probably a lot of truth to what is stated above. I kind of went a different route though. I had a few glasses of wine and was glancing at 360s on eBay when I came across a 2000 (Euro) Spider with about 60K miles. It was red over crema with a gated shifter and black top. I offered $70K and he accepted (private owner in Chicago). A couple days later I was on a plane. I drove the car for about 30 minutes and handed him cash. My girlfriend and I stayed the night in Chicago and drove back eight hours the next day. Took it to my guy to have a post-sale inspection. With the exception of a couple minor things, all is good and I have now driven the car another couple thousand miles. Am I stupid? Probably. But it worked out and I feel like I got a lot of car for $70K. Whatever works I suppose. ‍♂️

DonJuan348 · Dec 19, 2020

No stupid bought mine unseen. Also Euro model. And been thinking about selling mine. Higher mile cars seem to have less issues even when maintenance has been mediocre

Husker · Dec 21, 2020

I bought my Euro spider F1 sight unseen but it was owned by artsd, skidkid, and Noel prior, and had records and legit upgrades sufficient to impress the queen mother.

Reddesire348 · Dec 22, 2020

Husker said: ↑

I bought my Euro spider F1 sight unseen but it was owned by artsd, skidkid, and Noel prior, and had records and legit upgrades sufficient to impress the queen mother.
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I too purchased my 2004 Manual Spider based only on some pics of the car and the service books. I live in Victoria and bought it from Ferrari Brisbane after it came up on CarSales. I had an alert set up on CarSales to let me know as soon as any manual spiders came up. I'll never forget it was around midday on a Friday when it popped up with little to no history and no pics. I rang them immediately and they told me it had been in storage the last 2 years however the owner decided to sell it as he had purchased a 458 and was just not using it. They didn't post any pics initially as it was dirty and they had just moved it into the service bay to be cleaned up. I told them to send me some pics anyway of the car and service logs

Within 2 hours I had paid a deposit and within 4 hours the advertisement was removed from CarSales. I was looking for over a year after selling my beloved 348ts (the usual story had an offer I couldn’t refuse) and had no idea it would take me that long to find the car I wanted. I even put together a spreadsheet with 3 columns where I had one column of 'must haves' in green, 'acceptable alternatives' in yellow and the 'do not wants' in red ie. F1

I did my homework thoroughly and knew what I wanted and what to look for. When a quality car comes along you just cannot afford to muck around with negotiating and procrastinating. The good ones are not often put on the open market and when they do come up they go fast to people like me who are ready to buy the right car at the right price.

Sure I tried to negotiate and made an offer some 20k below the asking. The dealer thanked me and said "look you are the first of 5 calls I've now had so I will put the offer on the table with the owner and get back to you". At that point I said forget my offer I'll take it !?!?

I flew up to Brisbane for my first ‘touchy feely’ and my first drive. It was everything I had wanted and more. I am wrapped to have found it!

Reddesire348 · Dec 22, 2020

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Skidkid · Dec 26, 2020

Reddesire348 said: ↑

View attachment 3057835
Click to expand...

Crema and race seats. Nice spec.

Reddesire348 · Dec 26, 2020

Yeap came with every thing. I even have the original matching Schedoni luggage and full service history with genuine 9800km at the time. Now I’m just over 19,000km
Needless to say I’m wrapped

mb5 · Dec 27, 2020

Hi all. I’ve been a lurker on and off for a few years, but am now honing in my search for a 360 and have a question, particularly about pre-2002 models. The original post said:

> Some [pre-2002] issues are quite serious because failure involves very significant damage and repair costs, such as the cam variator shaft, cracking of the rear frame, cracking motor & transmission mounts, starter ring gear, and transmission throwout bearing & seal.

With the expectation that I’ll be finding cars that DON’T have documentation of doing the upgrade, I’m wondering if I can mostly dismiss the concern if there is some minimum of miles on it. That is, if a car has made it to 50k, can I assume that the cam variator shaft would have already failed if it was ever going to?

No guarantees of course, but rules of thumb would be very helpful. Thanks and looking forward to being able to post photos of my new purchase once it happens!

Reddesire348 · Jan 1, 2021

Buying a Ferrari is very much like buying a pedigree dog that you want to breed yourself. The paperwork, receipts etc are no 'guarantee' that something is not going to happen however its very important and reassuring to have as it can be a good sign of not only the work being done but the owners general attitude towards the car during his/her ownership as well as significantly adding to future resale value.
I always say 'plan for the worst and hope for the best'. Documentation with a Ferrari is very important and to 'dismiss the concern if there is some minimum of miles on it' is more a case of 'plan for the best and hope it’s not worse', an unwise path to follow IMHO

As an owner of 2 Ferrari's now over some years my take home message to you is;

You WILL get exactly what you are looking for IF;

1/ you know what you want and hold fast to that (don’t compromise on anything including paperwork),

2/ be patient (my second car took me nearly a year to find)

3/ be ready to buy fast when the car you are looking for comes up for sale as the good cars seldom last long on the open market and if you don’t snap it up there will likely be someone just behind you ready to go !

4/ Be prepared to pay good money for a good car. There is no such thing as a bargain when it comes to Ferrari's. Owners know exactly what they are worth and sellers who have done their homework know exactly what they need to pay to get the right car.

Reddesire348 · Jan 1, 2021

Now don’t laugh however I put together this attached 'Ferrari 360 Configurator' as a means of defining exactly what I wanted in my car and what if any compromises I was willing to accept. I then sent his to all that I knew in the business to keep an eye out for me and to let me know if something came up that would fit the bill.

Basically I split the spreadsheet up into 4 columns then listed every possible 360 option I could think of and rated them all against my personal desires!

1/ Mandatory

2/ Highly Desirable. Willing to pay that bit more

3/ Would consider based on price

4/ Frowned Upon. Only if car is exceptional in other area's

Ultimately I got even more than I had hoped for so am very happy with the outcome!

Maine57S1 · Jan 4, 2021

Reddesire348 said: ↑

Now don’t laugh however I put together this attached 'Ferrari 360 Configurator' as a means of defining exactly what I wanted in my car and what if any compromises I was willing to accept. I then sent his to all that I knew in the business to keep an eye out for me and to let me know if something came up that would fit the bill.

Basically I split the spreadsheet up into 4 columns then listed every possible 360 option I could think of and rated them all against my personal desires!

1/ Mandatory

2/ Highly Desirable. Willing to pay that bit more

3/ Would consider based on price

4/ Frowned Upon. Only if car is exceptional in other area's

Ultimately I got even more than I had hoped for so am very happy with the outcome!
Click to expand...

this is amazing...

Reddesire348 · Jan 4, 2021

Ha ha thanks. It is so easy to get caught up in the moment and buy something that was not what you really wanted. This helped me keep focused on what I wanted to ultimately get the car of my dreams so, for me anyway, it was a worthwhile effort.

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