Engine Out Service (Jumping into the Deep End of the Pool) | FerrariChat

Engine Out Service (Jumping into the Deep End of the Pool)

Discussion in '308/328' started by Vinsanity, Dec 27, 2020.

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  1. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
    Full Name:
    "VD"
    Merry Christmas all,

    I can't quite believe it, but it's been six-and-half years since I snagged a seemingly good deal on a one-owner 85 QV. Against all odds, that "good deal" has turned out to be exactly that. Fourteen thousand remarkably trouble-free miles later, I am finally jumping into the deep end of the pool and pulling the motor for a good mid-life service. I'll be doing belts, valves, injectors, waterpump, alternator, gaskets, hoses, an A/C upgrade, and a helluva lot of "while-your-in-there" items that come up. Fun Times, in other words.

    Along the way, I will try my best to post regular updates on my progress, along with any lessons-learned to help others avoid the mistakes that I end up making.

    I have little doubt that I will also be asking questions and looking for advice as I go as well. In fact, if anyone has any words of wisdom now, I'll start taking notes!

    First Status Update: Many thanks to my good friend and man-of-many-skills Cass (well known on the Testarossa section of this forum) for coming over today with an engine stand and a good attitude. We got the engine deck lid off and safely stowed in my basement, then went to work on getting the intake plenum and fuel manifold off. So far, the only stumbling point was the half-hour we spent trying to get a tiny cross-threaded nut off the end of the throttle cable so we could pull it out through the manifold. Dumb. Other than that, it was all smooth sailing. An auspicious start. Wish me luck.




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  2. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
    15,516
    Dumpster Fire #31
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    SMG
    Very clean bay.. Nice.

    It's fairly straight forward to remove the engine.
    Disconnect A/C compressor and pull aside, no need to remove but if you have access to someone who can capture the refrigerant and recharge it, that does make it easier. I'll remove the fuel tank vent lines and canister that's in the way to pull the A/C compressor out of the way.

    Remove axles entirely, having them flop about is more of a PITA then just taking them out.

    Remove the coolant overflow tank and oil cooler as well. Ignition coils can also be removed to get clearance.

    I pull the lump with the clutch and drop gears fully assembled. Others elect to remove them first, you don't have to.

    Remove CIS distributor body and filter assy. Disconnect lines at distributor or preferably at injectors and keep attached to distributor body.

    You'll need a load leveler or a way to rotate the engine so that bank 1-4 points down as it rises up. Some use lift straps on bank 5-8 and pull from there only. Headers are fiddly, some will come out before the engine is removed others not, but they do need to be removed at some point on the way out.

    Isolation dampers.. aka mounts. I remove the two bolts and leave the bottom half attached, however you'll need to loosen the large bolt on the bottom half to provide 'play' so that when the engine is pulled and tipped up it doesn't catch on the bolts that mount the bracket to the transmission. Reason I don't just remove the large bolt leaving the mount together is that they won't fit coming out and then you're left trying to remove the mount from the engine mid-lift... Precarious to say the least.

    Protect the rear glass! Cardboard and a careful eye.. and extra eye spotter really helps. Pulling and installing the engine has it kissing close to the glass... Something to keep an eye on.

    Take your time, take notes and you'll be fine. I've lost track of how many of these I've pulled and put in. It's not overly tricky but tedious.

    Oh remove the oil dipstick tube. Disconnect the shifter shaft at the transmission, there's a shouldered bolt holding it together, don't futz with the jamb nut adjustment section, unless you want to play the gear shifter adjustment game.... tip.. you don't. Only when needed.
    Clutch cable is straight forward when you look at it, cleavas pin and done.

    There's probably lots more but that's the bulk of it. If you can... Block off the coolant openings, tipping always gets more to come out.. Fun times.

    If you plan on pulling the engine apart... There's more there for tips and things to look for.

    You'll do fine... It's not that hard.

    Oh and it's a pain but removing the exhaust really helps, muffler and all.

    First time out of the gate... Expect a couple days. Take notes... Seriously... Take notes and pics for when it has to go back together.
     
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  3. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
    Full Name:
    "VD"
    :D Ha! Most things are straight forward, once you've done it before. My previous engine-pulling experience has been more engine-lowering. IE: aircooled Porsches.

    The good thing is, I just replaced all those fuel/vent lines a few months back. I imagine they will be much easier to pull off this time. And the I'm planning to replace the A/C compressor anyway. The coolant is long-gone, so it can just come out and find a box to live in. Should I pull the alternator too while I'm down there? I'm rebuilding it anyway, and it seems like it would make access to the exhaust manifold bolts easier.

    I was hoping to just unbolt them at the diff--mostly because I want to disturb the suspension as little as possible (next winter's project), but whatever works. Any recommendations on the easiest way to pull them then?

    Got a load-leveler, check. It and the hoist are sort of a communal tool, shared between friends. When I'm done with this job, I have to find someone else who needs it so I can get it the hell out of my garage! :)

    I'll re-read this when I'm at that stage. It'll make more sense to me when I'm looking at the parts, I'm sure.

    Tracking that one. I have a bunch of cardboard and moving blankets ready for action. And I'll have plenty of help on lift-day. It's going to be a team effort.


    I'm keeping a running word document with embedded photos of everything as it comes apart. As much fun as puzzles can be, with stuff like this, I prefer to cheat.

    Thanks--I'd omitted that from the checklist. Good call.

    Oh, I know that game already. :eek: Accidently backed the rod clear out of the 1-2 fork once, briefly turning a 5-speed into a 4 speed.

    Excellent point. Since these cars seem to contain a small swimming pool's worth of coolant!

    I'm thinking of replacing the head-gaskets. Not because she needs them now, but you never know. I might go nuts some day and put a one of your supercharger kits on. :) Other than that, she runs very well--no smoke, no tappet noise, excellent power, so I don't want to mess with success too much.

    Thanks for taking the time to post a reply. I love this forum! :)
     
  4. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    Axels are the same CV joint as porsche, so should be familiar ground. 8 or 9mm Allen wrench needed, use the 3/8" socket version. Don't recall if porsche uses the captive flange but the flange captures the castle nut, no box wrench needed.

    I unbolt the diff side first, then the wheel side. Going to be greasy but not too bad. Also great time to replace boots, regrease etc... Even replace the CV if you want.

    Hmmmmm... If the engine isn't leaking coolant or any other gasket issues... Leave it alone. Head gasket jobs open a can of worms, no need to go down that road unless needed.

    You have a QV, so unless you can track down a factory head stud nut wrench tool... Don't attempt. The nuts are not direct access, they sit under the cam journal tray right between the valve buckets... Real PITA location.

    After pulling the lump I place it on a rolling hydraulic table.. Kinda like those ones for motorcycles. The lump weighs around 500lbs. Makes working on the setup real easy, raise for standing... Lower for sitting... Etc...

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  5. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
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    "VD"
    Good to hear, that's what I was hoping. My boots looks okay, but I can't imagine not replacing them while it's easy. I'll evaluate the CVs themselves when I can see 'em.

    Oh yes, I remember seeing that funny-looking tool on-line. Makes sense now. I think I'll pass until a bonified need arises. Thanks.
    [/QUOTE]

    I
     
  6. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,527
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    Above all else remember this:

    The engine hoist is a tool designed to test the tensile strength of whatever it is that you forgot to disconnect.
     
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  7. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    As a young lad I was helping out ol dad with the nomad... Shifter linkage will support a Chevy for a short bit....
     
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  8. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
    Full Name:
    "VD"
    Update #2. Between having to check in with the office and other distractions, I didn't get much today. Just safely removed and boxed-up the Steampunk Mechanical Octopus -- by which I mean the CIS unit of course. Sprayed some penetrating oil on the fasteners for the driveshafts, etc.in anticipation of Fun Time to follow.
    When I started playing around with my plan of attack on the exhaust manifold/air injection system, I found that 3 of 4 gas samplers tubes had loose/cracked retaining nuts. Common, is that? The tube inlets are still very firmly stuck into the manifold. Like, I mean frozen. Do I even need this sampling system, or can I just cap them off?

    I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to trying to get those manifold bolts loosened up. They're just so darn accessible, aren't they? And I'm sure they're not heat-tempered into place by about thousands of thermal cycles or anything ...

    Seriously, any lessoned learned, suggestions, etc. to make this evening more productive? Failing that, I'll take sympathy.
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  9. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
    12,662
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    99% of us do not use those sampling tubes for anything. Simply remove and cap them off, or weld them shut.
     
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  10. derekw

    derekw Formula 3
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    Sep 7, 2010
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    London, UK
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    Derek W
    I found a very short 6-point 13mm (1/4" drive) socket and a selection of u-joints and extensions worked for most of the exhaust nuts. I ground the sides of a cheap 13mm open spanner (wrench) for a couple of them. I bought a 1/4" electric ratchet to speed things.
     
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  11. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
    Full Name:
    "VD"
    Thanks. It's encouraging to hear that a 1/4" drive sufficed. I was anticipating having to put a heaping dose of torque. We shall see.
     
  12. derekw

    derekw Formula 3
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    The nuts are copper thankfully (also why 6-points are better than 12)
     
  13. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,527
    California SF bay area
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    Yes ditch the sampling tubes, no purpose for them on an injected engine and they can lead to problems when they crack or break off. I even went as far as to remove the header shrouds since their only real purpose is to marginally shorten the time for the Cats to get up to temp from a cold start, Once they are off you will have far better access to the header nuts when you put it back together. But to get the header off the 1-5 head I had to wait until the engine was on the sling and lifted partially out, it was probably one of if not THE most PITA aspects of the whole ordeal.

    If you decide to cut the shrouds off well, that ain't exactly a picnic either. It'll cost you a whole Saturday.
     
  14. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
    Full Name:
    "VD"
    That's where my head is at too. What's the smartest way to terminate them?

    Is it actually necessary to get the 5-8 header off to clear the engine bay? I've read conflicting reports on that.

    Oh well, that's what Saturdays are for, especially in the dead of winter. I'm strongly considering cutting those off. They look terrible, and the only cats in my garage anymore are the furry, bird-and-mouse-eating kind.

    If I end up doing that, I'm thinking having the pipes ceramic-coated. Thoughts?
     
  15. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,527
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    Yes 5-8 header (typo)

    If you can get all of the sampler tube B-nuts out then you can just plug the bosses but if they break off and you are faced with having to drill out and re-tap well, you may as well just weld them all closed or even have the bosses cut off and the holes welded for a cleaner look.

    I had my headers ceramic coated. I have no data as to how effective that is but it's been a year and about 6,000 miles now and I have not seen or experienced any problem with heat. As I said the purpose of those shrouds is to retain heat for the catalytic converters, not to protect anything external. If you decide to cut them off you can ditch the idea of somehow preserving them for reinstallation at some future time. You will have to get brutally mediaeval with them - tin snips and pry bars seemed to work best and stay away from the seams because they are double layered there and you'll never get through. I wouldn't use a cutoff wheel as you could damage the pipes underneath.
     
  16. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
    Full Name:
    "VD"
    Big day in the garage. With the gracious help of my good friend--and our imminently handy wives--we took care of the last few hanging chads (and hanging half-shafts), finessed our strategy, and lifted that big old lump of an Italian heart out. No big snags, but many lessons learned along the way--which we learned quick enough that thing went smooth. I'll be compiling all my notes and pictures into an illustrated cheat-sheet as time allows. If nothing else, it will be useful to me next time I do this.

    My biggest headache was the low height of my garage ceiling, which may not apply to anyone else. We worked very hard to get the back of the car as low we could, while still being able to clear the engine hoist's legs. The key stratagem there was pulling the right shock, and the sway bar, and using a ratchet-strap to raise the right wheel hub/brake/control arm out of the way. It was a pain to do, but it bought us the extra two inches of clearance we needed.

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  17. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
    Full Name:
    "VD"
    Thanks to everyone here who posted advice when I started this thread. I definitely took it all on board--and will be asking a lot more as I move forward with the rest of this job.

    Special shout out to my man Cass, (known as C4b4the04 on the Testarossa room in this forum). This is NOT a one-man job; and well outside my previous comfort-zone of wrench-twiddling.

    And yes, before anyone says it, I know, my diff and transmission are FILTHY. Rest assured it will all look sparkling clean before it goes back in.
     
  18. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
    12,662
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    I don't pull engine inside the garage. I do it outside in the driveway and then I push the car back inside.
     
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  19. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    Jun 9, 2017
    383
    Northern Virginia
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    Cassidy
    Job went really smooth today overall. Thanks for the burgers, socially distanced lunch and great camaraderie. It plucked clean like your awesome group here suggested.

    I'm with folks here after reading the head gasket suggestions. Iirc it's the same tool on some other heads but not worth it. I've got some QV shims in storage and it's beginning to look a lot like we'll have twins running around town soon. Cheers, great work prepping for today. Not a bolt or wire misplaced.


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  20. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    The head bolt tool is nothing special, a cut off 17 mm offset box end welded to a half inch ratchet extension. It's better off just making your own if you have or know a welder. The one they are selling uses a cheap 17 mm wrench and it will bend. AMHIK
     
  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    I've bought and used and broken all the various welded ones, even had a welder try and fix one and make one... Busted...
    Tracked down the factory one... Going strong yrs later..
     
  22. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Use a good quality wrench and it won't bend. If it's properly welded I don't see how you could possibly break it, if it breaks at the weld then the weld was not done correctly.
     
  23. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    328 tq to degrees are a *****...

    First tool was from one of the ferrari suppliers, welded version. Second tool I had the machinest fab up and my welder buddy.. Who welds underwater on subs... Tempered etc... Guy knows how to weld. Also broke after I think 3 engines...

    Had gt car parts source a factory one after that... Zero problems so far.
     
  24. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Karting

    Sep 9, 2013
    225
    Washington, DC.
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    "VD"
    Is this the tool you're talking about?
    https://www.ferraripartsexchange.com/products/cylinder-head-tool

    It's listed as a 288 GTO/F40 tool, but given the family tree . . .
     
  25. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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