Engine Rebuild Suggestions & Tips Needed

Brian, you’ve seen more Fcar engines than almost everyone here, just for fun because I’m curious what year did you touch your first Ferrari motor? How old were you?

 

20. 45 years ago. Professionally.

 

Cool

 

Hello Brian! Don’t want to hijack ( ok that’s what I am doing...) the thread but as you are in the neighborhood and one can say you are “experienced” ... We had a debate about the possibility of doing the timing chain job on 400s (including changing all the parts, tensioners, gears...) without removing the engine.
What is you opinion?
Thanks!

 

Thank you Brian for all your help on this board - 99% of us appreciate it. The other 1%...oh well.
Would you mind telling us the names of these American manufacturers were you get your replacement valves, rings, and pistons?

 

He would know. (eagerly awaiting his answer)

 

I cannot imagine doing it. And I am always looking for an easier way to do something if it does not compromise the finished product. I have done chains a bunch of times. I have had tensioners out a couple of times But sprockets and guides.. I just dont see it.


Most sprocket wear comes from not changing chains in a timely manner. As links stretch the effective center to center length no longer matches the pitch of the sprockets and increases wear a lot. The chain rollers ride up the tooth on an area they do not belong and make those sharp teeth. Also worn rollers do the same. Change the chain on schedule and it usually isnt an issue.

 

Brian the pictures we’ve seen posted from 400 owners who have gotten into the engine have shown the material on the tensioner quite worn. I think that is the thing we all worry about, not so much the sprockets, etc. We’ve been told the tensioner won’t come out with the engine in the car. Please, take mercy on all of us, please dig into your memory banks and tell us if you can confirm or deny this?
Sure appreciate your advice & thoughts.

 

Sorry for teasing you. I was speaking of the tensioner itself. Not the rail. I dont think that would come out. I'd have to look at some diagrams to refresh my memory but I am pretty sure that won't happen. I think if memory serves it is assembled from the backside of the housing prior to being bolted on. That motor was not designed with easy service in mind. Story was it was designed by one of the Agnelli's for his Masters work in engineering school and it was mostly a political decision to put it into production. There was never a question the Daytona version of the big 12 had a far better cam drive system. Below the head gaskets and behind the timing housing they were essentially the same.

 

With some hesitation and apprehension, I've decided to begin the complete rebuild process and the engine should be out on Monday. In draining the fluids we found what is believed to be a broken lock tab from the water pump. I'm curious to see the inside of this engine as we've been together for over 20 years.
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Good luck, hope it’s not too bad in there.

 

A quick update on my engine rebuild. Everything is now apart and we found the coolant is going through the oil seal on the water pump. Could be worn bearings on the water pump shaft causing play - doesn't matter as it is getting new ones now. So the "where is the water coming from" question is now answered and will addressed.

No scoring or scratches on any of the serious bits but a few of the main bearings are starting to show wear. The heads came off very easily with no sign of water migration there. There is a lot of carbon build-up on the tops of the pistons and top of the head. We will now assess all the parts that need replaced - rings, exhaust valves, valve guides and springs, etc., etc. and come up with a list.
All-in-all this is a very nice engine inside and out and will hopefully (when all is put back together) be good for another 40 years.

So a few questions for you all -
1. Yes or no on ceramic coating of the headers? If so what brand/company?
2. Yes or no on coating the pistons, bearings, crank by a company such as Calico?
3. New (modern) sodium filled exhaust valves or stainless steel? Any particular company/brand, or anything to watch out for?

Thanks as always!

 

That's good to hear that it is nothing too serious.
It's odd that the coolant from the water pump could get into the oil as there is a weep hole in between the two seals so that if either seal leaks it will just run out the bottom of the pump through this hole.

 

1 >> I'd rather install stainless headers and replace the two stock heat shields panels by embossed aluminium panels. The panels I am talking about are the ones bolted on the headers (not the firewall panels). I do have heat-wrap on my headers, works very well but does not last long. If it can hold the heat for 3 years I will use it again despite all the work involved.

2 >> If the parts are within spec I would avoid magical coating. My new piston do come with "black coating" on the skirts. Presumably this complement the honing of the sleeves. Does look good on the bench. Will probably do no harm. My money would have been probably better invested in good oil.

3 >> It all depends on what you mean by NEW sodium valves. I am not aware of any modern made sodium valve, and for such components I would reluctantly use "new old stock". By contrast stainless steel valves from reputable suppliers are cheap and reliable (I am happy with Superformance).

 

Yes to coating headers makes them look good for a longer time


No to coating pistons if the coating breaks free will find its way to oil pick up which is not good



No no no to the valves Ferrari used them in the mid 70’s to late 80’s and was a big problem with the valve heads breaking off —- over time they get weak and are not made for high mileage plus if a price of Corbin or anything else would get between the valve face and seat it will snap the head off the valve
as far as i know staring in the late 80-early 90’s Ferrari only used solid valves for production (street Application) engines for this reason only
race engine Application would have a bimetal valve installed it’s about heat transfer on a race engine the running at a Constant 9k rpm for a few hours the valves will transfer heat faster and not over size or deform with a bimetal valve which is great a solid valve will over size in the guide and start to stick under those conditions but stop and go traffic and short track day use a solid valve will be just fine


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Went ahead and bought a set of stainless steel exhaust valves as suggested by everyone.

What about having the headers powder coated on just the outside? Would powder coating hold up to the heat or just flake off?

 

I am having my 400i engine rebuilt at the moment. 86000 miles and the tests show we had lost compression on a couple of cylinders etc. Found a crack in the head allowing a small amount of coolant in too. My engineer (who used to work for Ferrari and is very experienced) without hesitation suggested replacing the sodium filled exhaust valves with stainless. Valve seats, con rods, line, chain all being done. Luckily sprockets are good, as is the crank, although latter will be polished. We are doing the minor rust in the engine bay whilst out, changing hoses, looking at the air con compressor and reconditioning the starter motor. Recently put a new old stock manifold on it, so no need to change that, but we may coat it for durability as they can thin very quickly. My manual gearbox is out of course, so we may change the bearings. All these Ferraris have noisy gearbox bearings, even when they are not going to fail, but depends whether there is enough left in my budget, I may change them just to have more of the V12 sound and less of the transmission sound.

Reports are that the car is a different beast after this engine treatment, and rebuild on a car with reasonable miles starts the clock at near zero in terms of attractiveness to prospective buyers (not that I am selling!).

I also have a Land Rover Defender military Wolf, fresh from the army. When in service they routinely recondition these engines regardless of whether it needed to be done, and this one only has 40k miles and has already been reconditioned. They cant risk failure in the field even on a reliable 300 TDi engine. So doing a high performance Colombo at 86k seems sensible by comparison! The less goo d part is that the bill for the 400i is going to be about £20k.

 

Darrel: Sounds like you are going through the same project. What do you plan to coat your headers with?
Also, have you considered coating your bearings, pistons, crank with a Calico or Swain type material?

 

I am still deciding between high temperature paint and ceramic.

I do not believe the bearings etc will be coated. Interestingly, it has not been discussed. I will find out though.

 

With what and where? I see the metal heat shields at the end of each footwell, but I'm not sure about any others. Thanks

 

Two aluminium panels are bolted on the manifolds (they prevent the heat from reaching the kjet). These heat-shields are too heavy for my stainless manifolds: the nuts that are soldered on the manifold do break loose. As I was tired of removing the manifolds, I have removed the panels and used heat wrap instead, but I am now considering "embossed aluminium" as a proper substitute to the original heavy plates.

The fibreglass firewall is protected by one layer of asbestos and one layer of aluminium. These protections are held by rivets on the passenger and driver footwell. While the engine is out, it is a good idea to drop the rivets, keep the aluminium panel but replace the insulation material. This was obviously down on my car as the insulation is now a mix of asbestos and mineral wool...

 

How did you rebuild go? Any lingering issues?

 

It went well. Car is so much more responsive and blippy. I now understand why Ferrari engines are the best. I also had all the bearings changed on the gearbox and this has made the gear changes tight and fun too. Due to COVID staff shortages at the machine shop and the place who looks after the car in generals, it took a year though and the wheel arches and sills suffered some corrosion from inactivity, even though it was stored in an airflow tent. I have been quoted £6k for that. The whole rebuild plus gearbox and parts etc was about £27k. I also had the starter motor overhauled and changed the tensioner and chain of course. I had already changed the manifold for new old stock ones, so just had them sprayed to stop them thinning. The biggest issue in the rebuild was removing the heads etc as stuff had seized on due to a couple of historic overheats probably and just old age. Had the clutch assembly redone, new fuel pump as straight after the rebuild, I was firing on 6 cyl intermittently. Oil cooler and in/out hoses currently being replaced; had brake callipers cleaned and some pipes replaced which were bulging. Still got a couple of those left to do, which I will do myself. Done the 2000 mile run in and had oil changed, which looked pretty clean, so no internal issues on the engine. Mine is a 1979 400i manual so early 400i with XWX tyres..just bought a new set. All that remains is the air con, which doesn’t hold gas for more than a few months. But I don’t care about that as I rarely use it. Will simply regis for driving to Le Mans Classic shortly. It was all costly but worth it as the car is a different beast now, and the 365/400/412 series is going up in value at last (for good ones), so I might even get my money back of I ever decide to sell (unlikely…too good a car).

The boss of the place who looks after it drove it back to me and was floored by how good and practical yet fun this car is. He had never driven one. Most of their work is Aston DB5/6, Ferrari 330, Daytona and Enzos. For him to make that comment when he drives such other exotica was nice confirmation of how good these cars actually are as a solid classic GT.