Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap) | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap)

Discussion in '308/328' started by JC Andruet, Jan 2, 2021.

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  1. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    Correct.
    It's also worth noting that the way the rule is worded, it doesn't say engine centerline or crank centerline, it just says the engine itself.
    "Relocation of the engine and or transmission is limited to 2” any direction of OEM." If we're going off of the engine outer boundary, I can technically move the K24 considerably more than 2" without the engine moving more than 2" past the space the original engine occupied, if that makes sense. Hard to verbalize.
    I don't think I'll have to worry about that, though. - crank centerlines are close as is. But, there's wiggle room there until the wording of the rule changes.

    I will be going water to air with a second set of cooling pipes running to the front of the car.

    The factory coolant pipes are huge in diameter and should be more than adequate, and largely failrpoof aside from the couplings that join them together. I may make some changes to the way they connect, such as wiggins clamps, but at their core they will remain. I'll change the way they connect to the radiator and engine as well, either wiggins or AN.... some type of quick disconnect for serviceability and robustness.
     
  2. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Forgot, outer stub shafts?

    The stock Ferrari parts have a pretty bad reputation when used in anger with sticky tires....for sure the weakest link on these cars. It used to just happen with slicks but it's also popping up now with the newer dot tires also. Replacing?

    With the blower (24psi, 600ish hp on a mostly stock a F106) I ran 1" hoses up the rockers pretty easily, but I was trying not to really disturb the interior, you clear have more freedom.
     
  3. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    Yeah, I'll be doing custom axles, and likely custom stub shafts along with them. I'll see if my machinist can make some from Chromoly or something similar.

    1" hoses up the rockers is a very helpful tidbit, as that's quite a bit of room. I'll look into that, as I'd prefer to keep fluids out of the interior when possible.
     
  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    People have tried a lot of materials.....the issue seems mostly the sharpish corner as to shaft comes through the bearing to the wheel flange....the sticky tires in hard corners flex it and off comes the wheel. It's not a hp thing, good tires and fast corners. There is a guy who just did vette stubs and bearings so cheap replacement parts but it meant a custom upright.....I'm still just praying mine hold as I'm not headed to the track. There is a thread here I think.
     
  5. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    I've been talking to a friend about completely redoing the control arms and uprights anyways, as I'd like to increase the track width a good bit. We've looked into aftermarket CNC'd billed Elise/Exige uprights for their geometry and usability/cost, as well as the hubs/bolt pattern/etc. So I may be avoiding the issue entirely. Good to know though.
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    That sounds like a winner.

    What are you thinking on flares? simply expand what's there or smooth like a GTO (I think they are 2" per side and available off the shelf) or ?????

    remind me, where are you hoping to land on weight? Turbo to the front of the engine?
     
  7. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    I have a plan for flares that should be pretty big, I am hoping to run a 305 square setup on the car, although that might be ambitious. 285 should be a worst-case-scenario.

    I would like the car to be in the 2700lb range. Any lighter would be a blessing. I'm not really sure what other folks get normal 308s down to: I am not planning on fully gutting the interior, but it will be pretty barren with no accessories. Things like the complete ac/blower system will be removed, etc. I'll be retaining full glass in the car. I'd like to install a carbon fiber engine cover/deck lid (I'm not sure what Ferrari folks call the rear hatch on this car or if there is a proper term) and possibly carbon door shells. Most likely we'll make our own carbon hood.

    The driveline as a whole should be about 450lbs lighter, give or take, but I don't know what the weight of the turbo system will add. I'd guess around 100lbs, so call it 350lb weight loss from the drive train. I know the factory hatch weighs 62 lbs, so I should be able to save about 45lbs there. The bumpers will drop me about 75lbs once I put the carbon replacements on. I'm not sure how much weight will come out of the interior, but I've got lightweight FRP buckets going in, and I'm guessing there's another 150-200lbs to pull from stuff like the AC system and whatnot. Maybe a touch more weight to be dropped from lighter control arms instead of the steel ones, and billet aluminum brake calipers/aluminum rotor hats.

    The car weighed in at ~3130 when I put it on the scales when I began. One of my partners is confident we can get the car to the 2500lb range, but that seems rather aggressive. Could be, though.

    I think if the car proves potentially potent in 2020, I may up the ante for the 2021 year and build more aggressively within the ruleset to capitalize on the class. Lexan, more weight pulled, etc.
     
  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I have 285s on 10" wheels (had 10.5" for a bit) under the stock fender with the tire just about rubbing the stock inner fender. so for sure that works without flairs. It only requires coil-overs with a 2.5" ID spring and relocating the lower lower shock mount in about 1.63".....which means I technically narrowed the track I guess. With 600hp I always struggled with rear grip and gave a lot of thought to 305s on the new build but couldn't bring myself to cut the fenders and the V12 is so wide there is no place left to move in...so the 285s remain and I added traction control on the new build.

    The front is the bigger problem 225s work fine under a stock fender but much bigger and and they start wanting to rub....had the tech guy at an autocross come over and have a chat with me after my first run with 235s...he looked it all over and let me finish the day with a warning not to bring it back like that again....I had gotten a deal on the pairs 235 slicks which it turns out were not a deal. You're setup will be more front weight % biased thought so this may be more important to you and solved with flares.

    I've seen euro spec street cars at 2800-2900 with the ferrari engine and a full interior, that is where I'm hoping to land mine with the v12 . 2500-2700 tops sound spot on to me with your engine swap.
     
  9. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    192
    Good work in your latest video Mike !!
    More weight to come out of those bumpers still though. I'm guessing you've left the front and rear bumper shock absorbers attached ? the rears weigh 7lbs, but I can't remember what the front assemblies weigh. End result of the lot weighs 100lbs. IIRC the US cars have a completely different rear end structure for impact resistance, compared to those of the Euro cars.

    If you use very minimalist alooominum tubes and plates to afix the carbon fibre bumpers, they should weigh no more than a couple of pounds maximum.
    As you said on your latest video, those bumpers are some of the easiest, most effective lbs to shed. A decent battery will see you loose another 14-16 lbs, and the fitment of a/some lightweight bucket seats another chunk of weight.
    Do please weigh and catalogue everything you remove/change from the car, either on your videos or on here, it'll be a useful reference for others.
     
  10. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    That's really helpful to know about tire sizing on a stock car. Do you know what your current wheel widths and offsets/backspacing is? It does sound like the front is going to be the bigger challenge.
    I'm glad to hear the weight goals are realistic. We'll see where we land!

    Thanks JC! I did leave the bumper shocks on the car, and will be pulling them today, so I'll get those weights tallied up.

    Here's everything I have so far (and I'll be putting this into the next video as well.)


    F106B Engine & Transmission (with intake manifolds, injectors, starter, alternator, and some hoses. Stripped otherwise, no fluids): 611lbs
    Ignition computers and baseplate: 5.4 lbs
    Intake duct: 1.7 lbs
    Airbox & filter: 5.5 lbs
    Coolant reservoir: 3.6 lbs
    Muffler and exhaust crossover pipes: 60.2 lbs
    Smog pump: 10.1 lbs
    CIS Distributor: 14.0 lbs
    Misc ducts: 0.8
    Spare tire shell: 4 lbs
    Exhaust shield: 8.4 lbs
    Tool bags: 14.6 lbs
    Fender liners: 8.6 lbs
    AC brackets: 4.1 lbs
    AC compressor: 23.8 lbs
    EGR manifold: 1.3 lbs
    Exhaust manifolds: 38 lbs
    Intake manifold plenum: 7.3 lbs
    Oil cooler: 4 lbs
    Throttle body: 2.3 lbs
    CIS module: 1.6 lbs
    Spark plug wires: 3 lbs
    Front Bumper: 40.8 lbs
    Rear Bumper: 41.6 lbs

    Total is currently 915.7lbs.

    I believe the engine weight to be very accurate, as well as anything that is relatively light. I don't have a reason to second-guess anything else either, but it was weighed with a cheap bathroom scale if its over 10lbs or so. For anyone concerned with precision and accuracy.
     
    dhalter likes this.
  11. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    Going to big brakes (two piece rotors and aluminum calipers) and QA1 coilovers saved about 70lbs on my 800hp turbo 308.
     
  12. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    Also did you pull the bumper mounting struts? I went to euro style fiberglass bumpers (well, 288 GTO style front) and made aluminum brackets front and rear.

    If you make tubular control arms that are a drop in replacement for stock ones, let me know. I think that would save enough pounds to be worth it.
     
  13. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    Sounds like a cool build, I'll have to check that out. I'll be doing the same brake up grade, and a change to aluminum bodied coilovers as well. That's a considerable weight savings.

    I will post them here if I decide to build them. 50/50 chance that they'll be stock replacement.
     
  14. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    That's the old motor, 570 the day we filmed. Maxed out later at 620whp/750flywheel. New motor is 678whp/800 flywheel. That is currently clutch limited. There is probably another 100whp available, but I like to daily drive the car a lot.

    I modify Toyota MR2's for a living (plus some Lotus and Ferrari stuff). Are you planning on a 1000whp K24 (I didn't read the first 8 pages of this). There are lots of K swapped MR2's out there and according to the internet they all cost $800 to finish, haha.

    Aaron
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    My wheels are:
    Front 18x8, 13mm offset
    Rear 18x10, 32mm offset,

    Yes on the fronts, they either rub the outer fender pointed straight or it you reduce the offset to clear the fender they rub the frame at full turn, at least on the couple setups I've tried....but if you're fairing, problem solved or be happy with 225, which seem fine as front grip is good, at least at autocross speeds without the aero upgrades you're planning.

    the inside of the rears only clear my engine/trans by about 1/2" per side.....I can't imagine you'll have the same inner constraint and could get the 305s in by adding offset and moving the shock mount another 1/2" or so so like 2.13 or a bit more to be safe, and inner fender out of course...but once you flair no worries.
     
  16. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    I recently went back through a bunch of old magazine articles about the fiberglass cars. The claimed weight and measured weight seem to vary dramatically, like 500lbs!. So I'm convinced the fiberglass cars were never as light as people claim. The measured 0-60 times back me up here too. They were not any faster than the later steel cars.

    My 1978 GTS weighed 3150 back when it was 95% stock (cats were gone and aftermarket exhaust). I have a client that has a 76 308 GTB with no AC that he says is down to 2700lbs.

    Looks like you were on a Dynojet 224 dyno? I've got an older Dynojet 248 and dyno'd an 82 Mondial 8 at 155whp, my dyno reads about 6% lower than the current 224 models. 155 x 1.06 = 164.3 so right in your neighborhood. We typically say 19% drivetrain loss for these. The 75-77? cars were rated at 240 horsepower, but the cams got milder and emissions got tighter around 1978 and power dropped to 205 horsepower then. Ferrari didn't bother updating their 1978 brochure. Then the horsepower got even lower in 1980 when CIS came along, Ferrari stuck with their 205hp number, but the magazine tests confirmed the 1980 cars got slower.

    I don't like the Honda swap, but I'm definitely curious how this will turn out, haha,

    Aaron
     
  17. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

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    Yes there was a lot of discussion about this and it was pointed out that the claimed weight savings was more than the total weight of all of the steel panels on the car so obviously a fantasy. The main reason they stopped making the glass cars was because they just couldn't get the quality they were hoping for. That was why the GTB was delayed until 1976. It was supposed to be the Dino replacement but due to the delays the GT4 came out first and the rest is history.
     
  18. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    Just took some time to watch part of your video. Really pretty car, and it looks like a blast.
     
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  19. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    I'm just wondering where on earth this kid gets his money..
     
  20. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
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    Wow. Great car. Great video.
     
  21. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    Updating the weights totals today, as I removed more from the car:

    Heater elements (both): 7.8lbs
    Heater piping: 1.6lbs
    AC dryer: 2.6lbs
    Fans (both): 1.5lbs
    Bumper shocks (both) 8.4lbs
    Horn: .8lbs
    Heater Valves 1.2lbs
    Wiper reservoir 1lb
    Radiator: 38.4lbs
    Hood: 22.2lb
    Spare tire housing front half: 4lbs
    Spare tire housing bottom: 3.5lbs
    Blower Motor and piping: 3lb.4lbs

    Bringing us to 1012.1lbs total removed. Obviously a radiator and fans will need to go back in, but it'll be an aluminum radiator in its place. The hood I am hoping to change for a lightweight unit.


    I was a background extra in Walker, Texas Ranger as a child in 1994 and I'm still collecting royalties.
     
  22. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Funny..is this your business? Custom car building or is this a hobby. It takes a lot of disposable income and time to do what your doing if it's a hobby.
     
  23. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    It's a bit of both.
     
  24. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

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    There are folks that are making a living off of YouTube but make no mistake about it it’s a full time job making continuous meaningful content plus most of them have a hot looking gal in a bikini to paste in every thumbnail lol.
     
  25. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    140
    I'm not really sure why he's asking about what I do for a living or how I afford my Ferrari on a forum dedicated to people who own these cars. Seems silly to me. But it is what it is.
     
    ATSAaron likes this.

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