The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397) | Page 7 | FerrariChat

The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397)

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Aircon, Jan 29, 2021.

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  1. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    Abdul also owns (owned?) the Azzuro Blue La Ferrari that's also offered for sale by Kaasim.
    The rumour is that he's run into some legal and financial difficulties and needs to sell off his collection, allegedly.

    Hopefully there are no issues with that car.

    The F40 involved in the fatal accident during the '94 Cannonball Run used the organiser's number plate as registration, as did all entrants?
    So not to any use in trying to find out what chassis number that car had, again the intrigue of 85397 and its history.
     
  2. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

    Sep 12, 2005
    1,877
    Brisbane
    Full Name:
    Andrew Turner
    I think safe to say if the blue car is carrying the unadulterated assembly #02475 tag on the rear part of the chassis then that car has to be all or part of 85397.
     
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  3. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    4,417
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    I knew I wasn't nuts and that my childhood Bburago F40 had a spare tire in front!! This was driving me nuts, thanks for commenting, ha.

    sorry, back to the more interesting conundrum....
     
  4. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    #154 360C, Feb 3, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
    I wonder if the front section of 85397 is written off or is it part of the other F40 that was concurrently owned with the real 90969? Just speculation as the S/N numbers were taped over when I saw it. Hell of a coincidence that a dodgy 90969 stamping appears on the blue car with the back section of 85397.
    Somebody must know the identity of the Cannonball car. If it is not part of all this it would be useful to exclude it.
     
  5. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

    Sep 12, 2005
    1,877
    Brisbane
    Full Name:
    Andrew Turner
    If it is as you theorize, 85397 existing as the back half still with its corresponding assembly number attached and new front with bodgy chassis number, why would they have picked 90969? There are plenty of other written off numbers. None of it makes much sense unless you make an allowance for human incompetence.
     
  6. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    #156 360C, Feb 4, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2021
    If you were going to bodge up a chassis stamping and you had the back section of 85397, why wouldn't you stamp the front with the VIN of 85397 ? Why go with 90969 instead ? The whole scenario doesn't make any sense unless you have all the parts of the story and the important parts of it are not coming out on an open forum. Does anyone posting here have the whole story? Unlikely IMO.

    Lets imagine a hypothetical scenario where you have one party owning multiple damaged F40's at the same time. Major elements go backwards and forwards to different continents in the course of repair work. The S/N 90969 pops up on examples in different continents around 2012-2014. Kind of odd.
     
  7. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    #157 PAUL500, Feb 4, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2021
    Whoever did that cloning of the blue car has no doubt also had dealings/been involved with the red car at some point in the past, and it was probably a handy legal mule to get the blue car across borders/avoid duties by claiming the red cars ID instead.

    Until the pre history of 85397 is established then the blue car should not really take that ID either, unless it was just to avoid duties, get a rego etc then it could revert back to that car, if it was stolen then less likely, although depending on which country that happened in this could also still be done without comeback.

    Somebody will end up buying it, thinking they got a bargain and not doing proper background checks (which can be as simple as tapping the VIN into google these days), I imagine it will also go back to red so as to blend back into the F40 scenery. It certainly wont be broken up, as the sum of the parts is not the same as the value of a complete car these days, the value is in the ID.

    There was clearly an organisation hoovering up dodgy F40s and sliding them into Japan in the 90s

    People who have been buying up cheap F40s in Japan in recent times with virtually no history must be panicking a bit now if they are reading this thread, I can think of quite a few examples that have come into the UK , and have now moved on again to new owners..

    I think we forget that these cars are now upto 33 years old, a lot can happen over that time, most of which was before mass internet access. The world can easily talk to each other now so things like this will be revealed more and more.

    Both Tom Hartley Jnr and DK Engineering have posted you tube vids in the last year or so talking about F40s and how they are regularly made unsolicited offers of what they deem iffy F40s, which they would not touch with a barge pole, so there are far more out there doing the rounds to be discovered in time by Joe Public.

    The unanswered question for me is how the hell did the blue car even get a red book!
     
  8. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    "The unanswered question for me is how the hell did the blue car even get a red book!"

    That's another intriguing part of this story! First of all the blue car shouldn't qualify due to change of colour and to interior etc.
    Secondly, how can 2 F40s with the same ch.no (!) go through Classiche evaluation, and pass!?

    Do the blue car really have a Red Book?? And if so that's a scandal in itself! Questions will be asked.....
     
  9. F40-R

    F40-R Formula 3

    Jun 22, 2014
    1,218
    The blue car doesn’t have a red book, there was an error there...

    The red car is the only one with a genuine red book that resembles its correct matching numbers to certify that the car is genuine.
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    #160 Marcel Massini, Feb 4, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2021
    It seems there are a lot of errors with that blue car...........

    (PS: I have also learned that factory certification red books have been completely replicated and that doesn't really surprise me at all, because in the past few years I have found several red books (originals and excellent copies) on eBay. One of these replicated red books even included entire personal data from the then owner, including his credit card details and telephone numbers, etc., on eBay!!)

    Marcel Massini
     
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  11. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    Kaaiman clearly stated in their sales description that the car had been certified and given the Red Book by Ferrari (Classiche) in 2014......

    They also claimed : "...believed to be 1 of only 3 new cars delivered new to Australia" should they have added : "with that ch.no" ??

    Hopefully there will be some sort of conclusion to this saga + the "Cannonball Run" F40 and 85397.
     
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  12. john a barnes

    john a barnes Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2018
    242
    muskego wi
    Full Name:
    John a Barnes
    Big Intrigue. Sure like the Blue one. Tainted Ferrari's have been a problem for a long time. All it takes is one ignorant person with money to buy the car.
     
  13. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

    Feb 26, 2006
    6,047
    United Kingdom
    Curiously...the ‘Azzurro Dino’ La Ferrari has disappeared from the Kaaimans website too...not suggesting there is anything wrong with the car...just maybe with the consignment arrangements.

    Paul
     
  14. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    #164 275GTB, Feb 4, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2021
    As a Ferrari owner, collector and someone that spends their life around these cars, this whole story has me terrified, intrigued, but ultimately feeling very sorry for the owner of the legitimate 90969.

    I have re-read the whole thread to see if I am missing something.

    With regards to the Classiche red book....

    The red car for sale in Australia, has a red book and the owner has supplied lots of pictures of it, along with separate pictures of the engine number, gearbox number, steering column chassis number plate and front chassis plate in the carbon tub - all match: Classiche photos and what I believe to be current photos of the car as it stands now.

    The owner is being very open and forth coming with information, he can only be doing this as he believes his car is the legitimate and the correct car to wear chassis 90969.

    On the other hand the Blue UK car, has been pulled off the dealer website, and a deposit returned immediately to the "about to be new owner" as all this info on this thread has come as a complete surprise to them and the owner of the blue car - see post 146. That clearly rings rings major alarm bells to all of us.

    There are several calls for the body number of the red Australian car to be posted - please note that the body numbers are not in the official Ferrari Classiche red book - no photos are taken, no mention is made. So lets be a little patient with this one, we are in the middle of a global pandemic and lockdown, the car could be off site in storage, different location etc etc - given the openness of the owner so far, I am sure these numbers will be forth coming.

    Both the red car and the blue car having a red book - both claim to be issued in 2014 - the red cars red book we have seen, the blue car we have not. Marcel pointed out in post 160 that there are replicated red books kicking around - so the blue car could have a copy or replica copy.

    Or just a crazy thought - what is to stop a so called owner phoning the Ferrari Classiche department, say you own chassis 90969, send a few photo of the chassis number, and the old red book (easily obtained from the internet and old for sale ads of the red car), say you lost it in transit, fire, flood whatever!
    "No problem sir, that will be 5000 euros to issue you a new one" (as all the info is on file and easy to reprint), "thank you here is my amex number"! Given the magnitude and mighty high levels the red book is held in - small price to pay if you are creating a clone.

    Mark
     
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  15. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    F40 body numbers....great video from Tom Hartery Jnr going through the F40, its numbers etc

    if you want body number info just jump to about 22 minutes in to the video - very informative, but i suggest watching the whole video:
    The Definitive Ferrari F40 Buyers Guide - Tom Hartley Jnr
     
  16. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    #166 Collesano, Feb 4, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2021
    Here's a YouTube clip from November when they both were on display in the Kaaiman showroom :



    Adverts on Pistonheads : F40 and La Ferrari

    Regarding the alleged Classiche Red Book for the blue F40 and further to 275GTB's comment above,
    the thought of a copy being issued after a false claim of loss have crossed my mind too.

    Similarly the thought of forged copies of Red Books being an issue is a sad thing having to take into consideration when judging a car.
     
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  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    I know of people who have lost their original red books and have been able to purchase a duplicate.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  18. lord.brett

    lord.brett Formula 3

    Nov 26, 2006
    1,143
    France Normandie 27
    Full Name:
    brett
    This is a good idea for Classiche, to open a new structure intended to certify the red books that Classiche has issued in the past.
    The cash machine is on ...
    And it's more profitable than caps and t-shirts

    If that can reassure you, imagine the cold sweats that there could be on the Abarth ... ista forum about the Abarth Classiche certification when one is how many cars are only kits mounted here or there.
     
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    Since the beginning of the certification system in early 2004 Classiche has certified approx. 8'000 Ferraris, Dinos plus race cars. There are plans that a full list of all certified cars might soon become publicly available (on their website or at the dealers).

    Marcel Massini
     
  20. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    On a lighter note, in the middle of a very serious matter, it would appear that certain F40s do have a little spare wheel, as the twins were more than happy to point out Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Sent from my ELE-L29 using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  21. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    I don't think there is any doubt that the red Australian F40 has the rightful claim to the S/N 90969. The issue of body numbers was raised as they would almost certainly shed some light on the history of the car. Australia isn't in lockdown ATM, I doubt access to the car would be a problem from a CoVid perspective.
    The fact that the body numbers still remain a mystery points to the likelihood of an unexpected discovery.
     
  22. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
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    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    or the car has not been taken to the workshop yet? Most people that own F40s do so because they live busy lives and work hard to pay for them, particularly in these testing times, free time can be at a premium, family always come first, who knows, but I think unqualified speculation is wrong and its been rife throughout this thread.
     
  23. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    Strange that Classiche doesn't check and note body numbers as a part of the certification process, especially on F40s.....
     
  24. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
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    Mark McCracken
    Andrew, what makes you think assembly number 02475 was seen on a mystery car being rebuilt in Melbourne after a substantial accident. Can you share any details or facts around this post? Do you think that was the F40 crashed in the CannonBall?

    thanks Mark
     
  25. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
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    Mark McCracken
    maybe because a lot of owners would be disappointed when they were refused Classiche?
     

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