"Hi everyone!! Thanks for taking time to read this. I could really do with some help from someone that has had either a similar problem or has investigated this matter further. Back in 2008 and only 12000 miles after purchasing my brand new F430 the engine decided to say goodbye. Scored pistons and liners, thrown a rod. Although the car was still under warranty and only serviced at the dealer, Ferrari decided that because the engine blew during a track day my warranty was voided. To cut a long story short, I purchased a brand new engine and forked out the bill. Since then I have decided to have my old engine inspected to find out what could have been the cause of its failure. Pre-Cat brackets fractured, internal catalytic convertors broken. Particles of the cats into the chambers. In my humble opinion I though that what had happened was not down to the few laps I’ve done on the circuit, instead caused by a component failure. Because of that I had the brilliant idea to take Ferrari to court. Now, more than 10 years down the line, 3 court cases, I’ve got the final hearing very soon. A part from my inspection report I could really do with more evidence to show that this was a very common fault: I.e: other reports, pictures, literatures, etc… The key factor would be if someone had a cam diagram that could prove that the catalytic convertor particles, if broken, can be sucked back in to the engine…. Cheers
Wow is all I have to say, but I do have a question. How can cat material being sucked into the engine cause a thrown rod? Scoring and messing up the valves/pistons I can see, but isn't a thrown rod usually from a crack in the rod due to over RPM or stress or something? Not a mechanic, I'm just YouTube "certified", so I am looking to learn/understand.
Unfortunately a typical response by Ferrari. Hey, we make fantastic sports car, but don't actually drive it fast. Short story........... In 2013 I had Seattle Ferrari perform a complete clutch replacement in my 99 F1 360 (including a new flywheel) October 2019, while out on a drive, the engine shut off forcing me to coasted to the side of the road. The car was towed to Foreign Car Italia for repair (local Ferrari dealer). They discovered ALL the bolts securing the flywheel to the crank shaft had sheared off. The resulting repair was $14K.. Seattle Ferrari basically said "To bad, all repairs are ONLY covered for 2 years" A few days later I discovered a TSB issued in 2004 addressing the flywheel bolts with a redesign & new P/N. The difference is the length of threads on the bolt. The redesign was threaded all the way to the head. The old bolt was only threaded 3/4 of the bolt length. My service invoice listed the old P/N bolt, used 9 years after the TSB had been issued. As far as I'm concerned Seattle Ferrari was responsible for installing the old P/N bolts. Due to the nature of the infrequent use it took 6 years & 17K miles to fail. My theory is the old P/N bolts shanked out. While the technician achieved the proper torque the actual clamping force of the bolt was low. This allowed the flywheel to worked back & forth over time till the integrity of the bolts was compromised. When I brought this to Eric's attention he said Seattle Ferrari would extend a "Good will gesture" since i was long time customer. They give me $2,500 to help offset the cost of the repair. I then contacted BOTH Ferrari North America & Ferrari SPA, in Italy. Both said tough ****, work it out with your dealer, they could care less . I no longer feel confident driving a Ferrari or the brand. Flywheel bolts are not life limited & should NEVER fail. I had aspirations to purchase a 458, but no more, I now own a 2021 C8 Corvette
unfort there is quite a list of things that shld be perpetually covered when buying a ferrari: headers, cats, dct, ptu etc...
The new bolts are full thread ? You would not think a full thread bolt would be used on a flywheel attachment, a part thread is a better bet. R u sure it was not a material change ?
Here is a copy of the bulletin, you tell me....... Plus this p/n bolt is used in both v-8 & v-12 models Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Seriously, who has 103875 sitting around for 9 years on their shelf? That's almost hard to believe (not doubting you @Sled Driver ... just saying that's really kinda stunning). We sell the 201755 bolts like jelly beans they move so quickly.
That was the p/n listed on the repair invoice. No clue how many Seattle Ferrari had in stock back in 2013 Their argument was that the old p/n was still valid, only that engines built after the TSB was released would incorporate the "redesigned" bolt. That the old p/n bolt, my 1999 360 originally came with, had held up for 13 years with no issues
To OP, I can't speak to what happened to your car, but my experience seems pretty relevant: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/my-pre-cat-cataclysm-cut-losses-or-double-down.614240/
a thrown rod can be caused by any number of things, but the most common (in my own non-Ferrari experience) is something gets lodged between the piston and sleeve, or in the cylinder itself. "something" can include foreign objects "sucked-in", or pieces of valves or slag'ed pistons. Any one of these will slow or stop that piston in a hurry, which then breaks either the wrist pin bosses in the piston, or the pin itself, or the small-end journal of the rod. Any way you shake it, that rod is then going to find its own trajectory on the next rotation (usually straight through the side of the block) In other words, a thrown-rod is consistent with his hypothesis. Where I think he'll struggle in his suit is in showing that any cat-debris "sucked-in" wasn't expelled just as quickly. Proving it's theoretically possible is far easier than proving it was the cause of his specific failure. When I instruct at the racetrack, I frequently tell people (anyone who'll listen): "Don't take it onto the track if you can't afford to leave here without it". Anything can happen on the track, and frequently does.
Why? Plain shank or threaded makes no odds- the stressed area is least at the thread root, which is there regardless of whether the thread runs the full length of the bolt. I.e the bolt will always fail at the weakest part (provided there is sufficient thread engagement). To the OP- 430 uses variable cam timing on both sets of cams- there is certainly overlap between intake and exhaust at certain parts of the cam timing curve. Will take a look in the workshop manual for you- Ferrari often have this kind of technical info in there. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
One inflammatory post then run and hide hoping Ferrari sees the error of its ways and gives him a free car. Fact one: The engine blew on a "Track Day". No car company warranties an engine on the Track.....no one. Fact two: The OP had little experience with the car and did not mention a PPI on the internal condition of the engine when he bought it. Fact three: A cat failure caused a thrown rod.......I'm sure that is a common problem in the land of: "I want someone else to blame and pay for it".
I agree that there are 100 possibilities. The one suing has the burden of proof and I suspect he can't make that bar. AND as far as I know 430s don't have the same history of precat failure that 360s do so the bar is that much harder to clear.
I bet you they reused the old ones... Far easier than walking to the shelf and pick the correct / updated ones.
It isn't unheard of for F430 rods to let go. The design of the F430 variant has the rod angle on the limit. It was adjusted in the 458 engine. The Challenge cars run uprated rod bolts. I very much doubt that precat failure would throw a rod. I'd suggest that rod failure and the resulting mess in the cylinder damaged the cat. This is just my opinion in the absence of seeing the car.
It would be interesting to know if the car was gated or F1. Was an over rev on the track a possibility or not?
Well, your wrong there......... Both Ford, with the Shelby GT350R & Chevy with the Corvette are covered under warranty during track days. Why do people automatically think that track driving is hard on cars? Anyone that has taken a performance driving course knows it’s how smooth you drive. Drag racing is a different story, that is hard on the drivetrain. Plus I’ve seen plenty of people hit the rev limiter on the street. Ferrari dealerships are encouraged to organize track days for their clients, to appreciate the performance they purchased.
[QUOTE="Sled Driver, post: 147737069, member: 92149" Why do people automatically think that track driving is hard on cars? [/QUOTE] They think this because of facts, history, experience and statistics. Tracking a car is punishing on the entire car. Sure;I guess you can go to the track and cruise around it at 3/10ths and tell yourself it isn't. But as soon as you wick up the speed, the likelihood of failure, especially catastrophic failure, increases exponentially. [QUOTE="Sled Driver, post: 147737069, member: 92149" Ferrari dealerships are encouraged to organize track days for their clients, to appreciate the performance they purchased.[/QUOTE] Yup; but still won't warranty anything that occurs during these days at the track, hosted by them. Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
Really? This is the language the manufacturers use. I would love to hear an example of someone tracking a Corvette or GT-350R where the manufacturer warrantied a blown engine.....just one will do. Ford “Taking your Mustang onto a track does not void the warranty,” confirms Matt Leaver of Ford Performance communications. “However, if the car features non-OEM modifications, is involved in competitive racing, or is damaged due to driver error or driver abuse, the warranty will not cover that damage. Defects in material and workmanship that are not pilot error or track-related would be covered." Chevy "You may have heard or read that the warranty on Chevy’s Camaro and Corvette covers track driving. This is true. Spokesman Chris Bonelli confirmed that Chevy’s warranty will cover the C7 and C8 Corvettes and certain high-performance Camaro models for track use. There are certain conditions to meet, however. First, “track driving” means just that. Here’s the exact language from the warranty booklet: “High-performance features are intended for use only on closed tracks by experienced and qualified drivers and should not be used on public roads.” And, when Chevy says track, it does not mean racing. “We do not cover racing, which would be formalized and/or paid contests,” Bonelli says. This structure likely applies to both time-trial events… and autocross events." Porsche “In the event of a warranty claim, the Porsche factory trained service technician must diagnose the failure,” Weismann says. “If through this inspection process it is determined that the failure is due to the workmanship/material of the part, then it would be covered. If it is determined that the component failed due to the track event in which the part was pushed beyond its intended use, then no, this would not be covered. An example of this would be a missed shift causing an over-rev event which results in engine damage.” Both materially limit the definition of "track driving". Dodge Dodge’s 2020 warranty booklet conveys this warning: “Your warranties do not cover the costs of repairing damage or conditions caused by racing, nor do they cover the repair of any defects that are found as the result of participating in a racing event.” But wait, don’t they build these cars for drag racing? Dodge’s legal eagles have an answer for that, too: “The implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose does not apply if your vehicle is used for racing, even if the vehicle is equipped for racing.” As it turns out, there is some leeway for drag strip fun for some Challengers. FCA U.S. product spokesperson Claire Carroll explained: “The SRT Hellcat and SRT Hellcat Redeye are specifically engineered for performance, including recreational track use. So, track use does not automatically void the warranty. However, non-OEM vehicle modifications, abuse, and/or sanctioned competitive racing can result in unintended damage, which is not covered by warranty. Each warranty claim is evaluated and considerations such as the type of failure, driver action, and/or specific instance will determine coverage.” Challenger stick-shift fans should keep the following in mind, as well, when trying to cut another tenth or two from the ET: “Manual transmission clutch parts are not covered under the powertrain limited warranty.” (The warranty booklet puts that sentence in all caps, because everyone knows that means the Dodge folks are shouting.) https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/will-your-new-car-warranty-cover-track-driving/#:~:text=Ford%20Mustang&text=%E2%80%9CTaking%20your%20Mustang%20onto%20a,will%20not%20cover%20that%20damage.
Once again WRONG do a google search of “Shelby GT350R blown engine” you’ll find quite a few track driven cars with engines replaced under warranty. I attended the Corvette owners drivers school & the ONLY prerequisite for track driving is the Z51 option. Chevy expects you to track the car & covers it. sounds like your confused about insurance, not warranty. Your standard auto insurance does not cover track events. At some organized track events you can buy “track day” insurance with a high deductible & totaled value cap.
No confusion at all. Take your Corvette to a track day and blow the engine then come back and report whether Chevrolet replaced the engine for you.
So now your fixated that EVERY car that participates in track event will “blow up their engine”. That we’re all stupid & will be sorry for doing so. Let’s get back to the original post topic. Do you think Ferrari would EVER consider covering the repair, regardless of where you are driving when it broke? I got that statement directly from the ex head mechanic from Seattle Ferrari. Quote “The problem is Emery, you just haven’t purchased enough Ferrari’s for them to care.” end quote.
Typical and not unexpected answer from someone who deals with Ferrari corporate. In fact we operate the same way at my day job. If you want an exception to policy, you better buy a lot of stuff from us...
