Restoring my Grandfather’s Three Pocket Watches - Elgin, Waltham and … | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Restoring my Grandfather’s Three Pocket Watches - Elgin, Waltham and …

Discussion in 'Fine Watches, Jewelry, & Clothes' started by Brian A, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
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    1946 is already well within the wristwatch era. I wonder if my grandfather chose to still carry a pocket watch because of concerns for catching jewelry in rotating machinery at work. (Although in those days everyone wore a necktie regardless of vocation.)
     
  2. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    I just wanted to say thanks for posting this! I find it really interesting. Is there a resource I can look at that will help me understand the basics of how these watches operate?
     
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  3. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    The absolute best resource I can recommend is to buy a copy of the text “The Theory of Horology”. It goes to great detail on the design including the math behind watches.

    Second to that, there is a website called “The Naked Watchmaker” that has a tremendous amount of content as well as texts for sale and free e-books you can download on some subjects.

    *I have no affiliation with either of these.
     
  4. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    Well I feel a bit silly today. Looking back at the Elgin’s slow motion video again (and again) I’m not sure what I was thinking. The amplitude is actually very good and not too high. This is why I always look over and over at things even when I think they are done. So despite my previous “certainty”, it would appear that the roller jewel just came loose. All it needs is to have its staff replaced due to the pivot damage.

    The Westclox has turned out to be one of the most straight forward repairs I’ve ever done aside from setting the main plate back on and getting all of the pivots to align at once. The amplitude looks great and seeing that it was advertised as being accurate without 3 min per day, it is currently running like it was brand new. Just have to wait and see how that mainspring holds up at the end of the run to decide if it needs to be replaced or not.

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    Remember folks, I’m an amateur and I’m still learning ;)
     
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  5. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    I like the click/clack those things make. If I'm not mistaken I think you have the date of manufacture at the bottom of the main plate. I know the Big-Ben and Baby-Ben alarm clocks have them stamped....
     
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  6. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    Really? The 2 26 55 stamp could be the manufacture date? I’d never thought of that. Here I thought I was just a really weird way to display a serial number. I even tried several different ways to search for it LOL. That’s so cool, thank you! It’s amazing how the obvious can slip right past sometimes
     
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  7. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    Yes indeed, 1955! I know it is odd to have the exact date. I wonder if they left it set for a week at a time or actually changed it each day. 2/26/55 is actually a Saturday which is a little odd but I suppose just like today there were multiple shifts at work. On the alarm clocks the date is buried inside, between the plates so one has to be working on it to find it.
     
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  8. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    I just checked eBay. Some of these babies are selling for as much as $20! Big money! There are even a few that come with “box and papers” just like a fine Patek Philippe.
     
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  9. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    A new mainspring is on its way for the Westclox. It ran well up until the 22 hr mark then it dropped off and died at 23. It should run for 30. Everything else looks good though.


    Now for that beautiful Waltham. For starters, we already knew there was a broken pivot on the balance staff. As I started to take it apart I found some more areas of concern.

    1) It appears someone tried to lubricate it using only what they could find in their spice cupboard.
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    2) I did find the contouring that was done on the center wheel (larger, brassy looking one in the middle) which was likely stamped to shape the spokes to be quite beautiful though.
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    After it was all taken apart I threw the jewels under the microscope as usual and here's where the real problems lie.

    The jewel in the mainplate (top right of picture) for the escape wheel has three cracks in it. Given a sharp shock, it could crumble.
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    The jewel in the mainplate for the seconds wheel has a chip taken out of the bearing surface (bottom of the hole is chipped away)
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    The mainplate balance jewel is worn. The hole now resembles a heart instead of a bushing.
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    The mainplate cap stone for the balance is badly chipped nad shows signs of a crack from the end of the balance staff impacting it.
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    The balance cock jewels are in bad shape as well. Here you can see how much damage was done by the broken pivot bouncing around as well as the hold being oblongated. The cap jewel behind it is chipped like the lower cap jewel.
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    I was not expecting this many damaged jewels though there was always a chance that the balance had done some damage. Fortunately, the actually pivots on the steel pinions all looked good and need nothing more than perhaps a light polishing.

    We're in luck though parts for American made pocket watches are relatively easy to source. There is much to do but, it can be done.
     
  10. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    The Waltham looks like in remarkably sad shape.

    That watch seems to have lived a might hard life: so much dirt, broken parts, missing crystal, bent case.

    I wonder what happened. Do jewels break through usage or just from trauma? It seems odd that this is all from a one-time event. Cumulative damage? Any speculative thoughts?
     
  11. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    The jewels can wear from dirt getting in the oils but these appear to be from the watch getting hit. My guess is that a single drop caused much of the damage. Most likely the case lid damage, breaking the crystal and the damage to the main plate jewels all at once. I believe it fell in this orientation:


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    This would account for the damage to the hinge which is keeping the lid from closing. After initial impact I’m guessing the crystal then hit on something as well. These both would have forced all of the pinions to hit the main plate jewels. That same hit may have caused the balance cock to flex towards the main plate a touch as it is thin and cantilevered out and this could have hit the upper pivot hard enough to break it.

    Purely speculation on my part, obviously, but by my trained eye this could have been THE failure mode.
     
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  12. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    ...hopefully you guys don't mind my frequent comments. I enjoy seeing others do what I enjoy doing (that's why we're here).
    The center wheel may be gold. There's debate whether they were pure gold alloy or plated. Some people have cut into used ones to find out and I'm not sure what the consensus is but the reason was to have softer teeth on the high pressure areas to allow less friction. The "stamped" appearance and color seems to indicate gold to me. Once cleaned it will likely become obvious. Really good watches have them. Really, really good watches have all gold gears like the Illinois Sangamo Specials, Hamilton 960 for instance.
    The "chipped" part of the inner jewel is most likely just dried oil. Trust me I'm re-doing the balance staff and jewels on my Hamilton 992e and had the same phenomenon last night. I had to look at it a few times to realize it was just oil. Clean that jewel and you'll feel better.
    The cracked jewel, well that's shot. The only standard manouver is to replace. You could clean and leave if the watch isn't to be used too much. The standard reason to replace is not the concern of the jewel pieces dislodging; they're fitted in there tight enough, but the crack will "draw" oil and allow crud to accumulate so there can be faster wear on the pivot bearing surface. Now that said on a few of my rare watches where there are no parts available I have left such things. Since most of my stuff only gets run once a year with modern oils they'll never wear. If this is the 1908 I don't think I have a spare movement or jewel though - sorry.
    ...Dan.
     
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  13. walnut

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    @QtrItalian, you were partially correct. After a through cleaning there was a lot of oil in there that accounted for a lot of the appearance, however, there are a few knicks in the jewel and one appears to run into the bearing surface. If I'm replacing the others as well as the balance staff, I think it is best to go ahead and do this now while parts are available.

    The more I clean off the center wheel with a soft fiber brush, the more I think you are correct about the material. It appears almost a rose-gold color. Very pretty indeed.
     
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  14. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    I think I was looking at the balance jewel picture regarding possible oil. It's somewhat weird to have chips like that but if they're there, they're there. Yes I think the center wheel is gold. I just looked at my Waltham Vanguard and it has a gold center wheel (hard to see here but it reflects differently than the brass gears). Always a mark of a good watch - to be proud of!
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  15. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    I’ve turned my attention to the case. It has taken a while but I finally managed to get the hinge pin out.

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    With a little help from my trusty pliers, my palms and my work mat, I can now get it to snap shut and unlatch by pushing the crown! It’s not a good, smooth action, but with a bit more finessing, I believe this issue can also be solved here in the Walnut Lab :cool:
     
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  16. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    Bravissimo!
     
  17. walnut

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    I've already told Brian about this... A while back I installed the new crystal and it broke. I thought it had possibly cracked as a result of the bezel being out of level, the case being tweaked and bending the bezel when they were paired back together, or something else I had done unknowingly. But now, I'm not so sure.

    After working to "finesse" the case lid hinge, I tested the release action. It is getting much better, not quite there yet though. I decided that since I've already cracked the crystal, lets install it and close the lid to see how it fits. Turns out that there's a tiny little dent in the lid that happens to line up with where the crystal crazing/cracking pattern traces back to. I think I broke it when I closed the lid and this tiny dent impacted crystal. While that sucks, if it is the case, it is also good news because I can work a dent out of the lid. I did that on PhilB's pocketwatch in the other thread where a dent was also the source of the broken crystal.

    I've got replacement crystals on the way but opted for acrylic this time due to their resilience.
     
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  18. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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  19. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    172
    For future reference keep White's in San Francisco in mind. His crystals are top notch, he can modify beyond what he advertises online or at auction and once he sent me a new one free after it cracked on installation. During COVID he and I spec'd out a hunting crystal for a long-ago in-the-day modified case which needed clearance over three center posts (chronograph movement) but still allow the lid to close. I calculated about 0.02 mm on both upper and lower dimensions to clear and I still needed the crystal to be thick enough. I gave him a specific bezel diameter and he nailed it exactly. It was the measuring that killed me. The funny thing is that the lid would not close until the crystal was set in place and glued down and bezel snapped in so I only had one shot at getting it right. In another situation I was able to rub it on 800 grit sandpaper to remove a tiny bit of the edge and get it to drop another 0.04 mm or so. You could always try that. It didn't think I could sand glass until I tried....
     
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  20. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    I've made some really good progress on fixing the release/hinge action. Nice and smooth now. The lid doesn't quit set flat against the case yet though so there's some more finessing required.



    I am going to see what I can accomplish with the acrylic covers but yes, it appears now that its a matter of getting a crystal with all the proper clearances. Do you have a website or other contact info you could share with me for "White's"?
     
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  21. walnut

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    The acrylic crystals arrived today. I did a quick test and they definitely fit under the closed lid but it appears the canon pin is going to hit the inside of them. There is always a possibility of putting some shim stock in where they lay on the bezel and finding the sweet spot. That will have to wait until the movement is finished and installed though.
     
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  22. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    Sure thing:
    White's Crystal
    www.whitescrystals.com


    If you put some sort of powder (maybe rouge or a real small dab of kitchen flower) on the canon pin you can see if it transfers to the underside of the crystal when placed on...however you really don't know until snapped in and then it might be too late if the canon pin decides to crack it. I have to say this is one part of watch work I hate. I'm at the point of potentially not buying watches which don't have good crystals installed...

    One more tip (also really for future readers), don't snap hunting cases closed like in the video. Once or twice or ten times is fine. But, over time the steel catch spring will wear away the lip. I have one hunter which pops open at will because of this. I may have my friend laser-weld a little more gold to the lip, but then I'll have to file, sand, polish - no fun. The "proper" way is to push the crown in, then shut the lid, then release the crown. Yes, no actor in a western movie does this but.....
     
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  23. walnut

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    The replacement mainspring has been installed in the Westclox Pocket Ben. Everything seems to be good so I’m going to call that one “finished”.

    The jewels for the Waltham have been delivered as well so work on it can begin again in earnest.

    Before I get back to the Waltham though, I have three other projects that can easily be finished by installing their new mainsprings (two “client” pocket watches and my personal Girard Perregaux revival). Then I want to get the new staff installed in Brian’s Elgin which after timing adjustments will then be done too.
     
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  24. walnut

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    #74 walnut, Mar 9, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
    The upper and lower balance jewels (four of the six needing replaced) were easy to swap out as they are set/held in place by two screws. I’ll double check the fit but in theory they should be good to go.

    The other two will require some finesse. Fortunately about a two years ago I was able to pick up a wonderful old Seitz friction jeweling set. You can either use the handle as a press (pushing the old jewels out) or as it is shown here with the micrometer head which allows for very fine depth adjustments.

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    The jewels on this movement (replacement on right) are set in brass “chatons” va. modern jewels which are generally directly pressed into the plates/bridges/cocks.

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    The chaton was often made of a softer material than the plate, such as gold, so it would be easier to press in the jewel (when REAL jewels were used) without risking damage to it. Then pressing the chaton into the plate sets its depth. Some companies still use this approach although it is done as an homage to the old days and adds a beautiful aesthetic. A. Lange & Sohne comes to mind as an example. Many others such as Vacheron Constantin do not do this as it is unnecessary as modern synthetic jewels are much more durable.
     
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  25. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    These insights onto the methods and tools you use are fascinating.
     

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