Fake VIN? I don't think the VIN or VIN plaque it wears is fake, just tampered with. Whoever stole the car probably cut it off rather than remove the rivets cleanly to hide its identify better. Once the search for the stolen car died down they probably were okay putting it back and had to makeshift it with that adhesive. That's what tipped off the import inspectors that something may not be correct.
Ok. I just assumed they would have had to reassign a vin to it at some point in order to sell it or move it throughout the years. This whole thing seems like a keystone cops deal...steal a 1/350 car then get busted by a sloppy glue job.
Mmmmmm... Reading through this post, a question popped into my mind. In the modern world we live in, why there is no ownership verification for such iconic cars high in value. I mean, if you buy a "Richard Mille" watch for example through dealer, you will receive an ownership title after having your name run by and registered with Interpol as I understand, in case your watch was stolen or even if you sell your watch or change title through dealer. So, the idea of having such easy steps taken for such cars is simple logic!
...which would suppose that you are fully transparent with your tax administration, which, I understand from the Gentlemen knowing Italy better than I do, is not necessarly the case for every owner? Furthermore, the fact that your watch - or your car - is registered does not prevent it to be stolen, and enjoyed by those who have stolen it. Apparently (see the other thread in the "F-50" forum) the fact that the car was in Japan was "un secret de Polichinelle"; sorry, rather a "segreto di pulcinella" in italian: meaning "no secret at all". My GUESS is that the gentleman who bought it at last didn't do a proper due diligence... Rgds
Interesting point of view. However, regarding the "does not prevent it to be stolen" part, that is %100 true, but at least it would be a "nightmare" for thiefs to even think about selling it, which would eventually lower the motive to steal it in the first place,,,
Again: I'm completly out of my league when speaking about supercars, it's a "problem" I will never have...so I should probably remain silent. But I understand from the "other thread" in the supercar forum (= 288GTO/F40/F50, etc...) that many people knew that this very car was in Japan, and my GUESS (again: only a guess) is that some of the owners [Marcel (= Marcel Massini) has posted the story of the different japanese owner in the "other threads"] in Japan knew the car was not "legit". Ferraris have plenty production serial numbers everywhere (engine, transmission, etc...) and I found it hard to believe that anyone buying a 2 million dollars car would not have checked those, with people in the know, such as Marcel for instance, a well renowned expert in such matters: a modicum of serious Due-Diligence is a minimum here. I would think that those who say they didn't know, either didn't want to know, or were very naive..or knew it perfectly well. There is also a difference with you people in the US and many other countries in th.e world, such as France where I am for instance: you almost always disclose VINs of a car without any hindrance, but I can assure you that this is not the case everywhere: in some countries the VIN is protected as a state secret. Maintaining with some friends a registry for all 328s produced, I can tell you information about the Japanese 328s is very difficult to obtain; there must be at least 8 to 10% of the production here, but the actual serial numbers are very hard to obtain...but these are not supercars: unless you keep it locked for good in a garage, a F50 is something very difficult to hide... Rgds
No, there is none, and that's because it is "un bien meuble", and there is no title or deed for "bien meubles". But French law is very different of American law, which brings us back to my interest for the matter of the Law that the judge will use. Or perhaps it doesn't matter that the original owner from which it was stolen is Italian, and as the car is on american soil where it has been seized, american Law will apply. Rgds As an aside, for french cars your answer is here: the classical theory in french civil Law of the "faisceau d'indices": https://www.lagbd.org/index.php/H%C3%A9ritage_ou_confiscation_comment_d%C3%A9termine-t-on_la_propri%C3%A9t%C3%A9_d%E2%80%99un_v%C3%A9hicule_%3F_(fr)
The factory database had a clear remark "contact SAT" for this serial number. SAT is Servizio Assistenza Tecnica, the Technical Service Assistance, a very important department at the factory in Maranello, Italy. Such a remark is usally a massive red flag, such as a stolen car, a missing car, a burnt out or destroyed car or a totally resurrected car or a car with a chassis number problem or other legal issues. I am sure most people involved in this case (in JAP, CDN and USA) knew about the problem (theft) very well. Who in Canada really was the seller? And with what serial number did the car enter Canada, when arriving from Japan? The Japanese dealer which in November 2018 offered this F50 to several Americans stated in writing (dated 14 November 2018) "no accident history" and "no stolen". Complete lies. I will never understand why somebody spends almost 2 M $ without proper due diligence, even if you are a multi billionaire and one or two millions more or less in your pocket don't change your life at all. It's definitely not lunch money. And yes, people can contact me as well. I get lots of such inquiries all the time. The last request came in less than 24 hrs ago, re an F40. It had no red flags whatsoever. Marcel Massini
The buyer not doing due diligence on a $2 mil car is an excellent point. It causes one to think maybe the buyer didn't want to know any negatives, and couple this with the idea that this was sold well below expected market price. As they say, things that make you go hmmmm? Kudos to you for being such a Ferrari resource! ( I never knew about the "contact SAT".)
Living under my rock, whats current market? $3.5M? This FLA buyer has abig collection right? As such he should know what market $ is and if it was well under I'd say he knew.
So the only flaw I see In your post is the last line... That the car will be out up for auction. Now I shouldn't lable it as a flaw... Because you might know more about this than me... As well as I could be misinterpreting your post so it could be 100% my idiocy. But... Why would the court send it to auction. The court is going to determine who has legal ownership of the vehicle.
Great question. My only experience with this was import/export of technology not cars. That said....I believe the same rules apply. The car was seized because a US crime has allegedly been committed by importing stolen property. If The US Court does not identify a clear owner the Judge can order it as seized US property to be auctioned to pay for storage and court costs. The good news is that the new auction Title will be valid globally. The Florida buyer and the Canadian seller will have some explaining to do since it was fairly obvious that it was stolen property. The claims by the original owner should be an interesting read.
There is no global watch title register with Interpol or anywhere else for RM watches, or any watch brand. Just as there is no car or jewellery or any other global title register. Interpol can be involved with watches once they are stolen. Anyone interested in scratching beneath the surface of the stolen watch world might be interested in this. https://www.gq.com/story/art-recovery-international-finds-stolen-watches
Can't confirm if they have direct cooperation with Interpol or not. As this is what I understood from a friend of mine who happens to be a "big-time" RM collector. But I can confirm receiving a title register along with my time-piece, with my name and personal ID INFO on it by RM a few months ago. Which means that it qualifies as "GLOBAL" title register. Which also means that with such titles, in case any thing goes wrong, they can use it whether they R directly cooperating with Interpol or asking for their services at such times! Anyway, the idea of "global titles" I was referring to is still valid regarding the OP's subject. Thank you,,,
I'm surprised you would say that. If it is auctioned by the US Government....you don't believe it will be a valid Title? From the US Government Auction website: You will receive a clear title with no liens. Title will be conveyed via the below documents and will take up to 7-10 days from CWS’ receipt of Buyers signed paperwork for vehicle sales, and up to 21 days for vessel and aircraft sales to be sent to Buyer. Vehicle Title: Buyers will receive a clear title via a government Form SF-97 (Certificate to Obtain Title) which they will take to their local Dept. of Motor Vehicles to obtain the title to the vehicle. Vessel Bill of Sale: Buyers will receive a clear title via a Coast Guard Bill of Sale for vessels and a SF-97 for boat trailers (if included). Aircraft Bill of Sale: Buyers will receive clear title via a FAA Bill of Sale, AC Form 8050-2. Buyer will be provided the Bill of Sale along with the Court Order and/or Declaration of Forfeiture (when applicable). Please note, license plates or temporary tags will not be issued. It is the responsibility of the buyer to secure those or to get a transporter to pick up the vehicle. If this can’t be done, the buyer will need to arrange further storage, at buyer’s expense, with the vendor until he receives his SF-97 and titles the vehicle.
So... I will answer for/with marcel. .yes it will have a valid us title. However... Other countries do not have to agree or honor the title. Not because it was stolen or anything. They simply just have the right to refuse the title or ownership documents. They can turn it down or away. A country or business such as a bank can still petition for the car or rights if the crime took place I their jurisdiction let's just say it's poland.l and polish bank or insucanxe company has a claim to it. So if the car were to reenter poland they could wrap the car up in litigation in poland because polish victim has not been heard in polish court court. To further complicate things you have the EU and if they are an eye country than anywhere the car goes in the eu it could be subject to court proceedings as an eu court has not ruled on it. The american courts might be referenced but I would be up the the presiding court if they wanted to recognize the american ruling or not. So marcel is right... The title may not be 100% acceptable anywhere in the world. But if the car stays in the us. No one is going to fly from europe to capture the car to export and get it through customs to have the car day in court in europe. So if the car stays in the us than it's safe and fine.
What he said above. Because the US recognizes a owner on the title doesn't mean the rest if the world needs to. Some counties (Canada, and I'm sure others) don't even have a concept of titles for vehicles. Sent from my SM-A515W using Tapatalk
Marcel, You are going to have to do better than yes and no's. The US Government does this everyday with auctions much bigger than a seized F40. They auction $15-20M jets and yachts every month. I would think that a jet and a yacht would see a lot more international travel than the F40. If you can provide a single example where a government issued US Title did not hold up....I would be interested in seeing it. The whole reason it is going to court is to determine the rightful owner which includes the US Government. If anyone else has a claim to ownership and they don't show up......they definitely give up their US rights as well as any country that has international property right treaties with the US. Frankly.....I'm pulling for the original owner but even that appears to be problematic.
I'm going to have disagree with you on this one. If the US court sends it to auction and it is been homologated for US DOT and EPA. You shouldn't have a problem getting a title and certainly owner in the US will be settled. Also the US court would do an extensive amount of research including contacting interpol to check with europe to make sure no additional plantifs needed to join the case. If the american court rules on it and even sells the car through the auction. You own it in america and it's safe... And if there was some random thing that popped up the US government would have to give you your money back. But again I have never seen an instance were property was sold and the government said whoops. Now when it goes to auction there is a notice of any liens and or encombances that may attached in this case there would likely be none. If they exist then you must satisfy those liens. Also most things at these gov auction have a 180 day cure period for those reasons so once past the 180 cure period your are pretty solid. Of course this is america and you can sue anybody for anything. But at that point it's going to be a civil proceeding.
