Restoring my Grandfather’s Three Pocket Watches - Elgin, Waltham and … | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Restoring my Grandfather’s Three Pocket Watches - Elgin, Waltham and …

Discussion in 'Fine Watches, Jewelry, & Clothes' started by Brian A, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    You probably know this (but for other readers of this thread): The second row of instruments from the front in your Seitz box are reamers. They are to accurately open the plate hole to just under the size of the actual jewel. Namely 1/100 of a mm smaller. So the one on the left numbered "69" would ream a hole to 0.69 mm and then one would press fit a 0.70 mm jewel in. It is amazing the tolerances of both the instrument and the jewels.
    I had to test this out last summer on a dual train jump seconds watch I am restoring. The center jewel came out (was messed up and replaced by someone previously). It called for a 160 jewel but the hole was already bigger than that. There is no 170 jewel available from Seitz or that I could find historically. So I had to rough drill the hole and then ream up to 179 and press fit a 180 jewel. It still looks decent being a second pivot, centered jewel - but man, what a leap of faith it was going to work out. No turning back on that one!
    ...Dan.
     
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  2. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    Another of the extremely useful vintage tool sets I’ve collected is this Staking Set. It’s not quite complete, but it does have most of the pieces and I’ve not found anything to be missing which I’ve needed so far.

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    Last week it came to the rescue when I needed to disassemble the balance for the Waltham. First step is to remove the hairspring which lifts off pretty easily thanks to the split collet that holds it to the balance staff. The split collect is on there pretty good but it can be adjusted (rotating around the staff) which allows to get rid of the beat error.

    The staking set has selectable hole sizes or anvils for the base and a large number of different type stakes to work with. My first step was to remove the roller table from the lower end of the staff.

    Here’s the balance with Hairspring and roller table removed. It is difficult to see in this photo but the pivot at the top of the staff in this image is what was broken.

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    Next, I set the balance up in the base and use a stake to tap the staff out of the balance’s hub. I use a piece of brass bar stock as a hammer to strike the stakes currently but I should probably found a proper brass jeweler’s mallet.

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    When it’s all said and done what you have are the parts setting in the tray. I need to reshellac the roller jewel and then everything will be ready to assemble with a new balance staff (when the correct part arrives).

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  3. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    I’ve not fallen of the face of the Earth or anything, parts arrived and life got busy. I wish I could do this as more than a hobby but for now, family first, work second, hobbies last.

    Stay tuned though! I’m hopeful that my schedule will open up again very soon.
     
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  4. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
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    No worries. Enjoy the family. The watches can wait.
     
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  5. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    Thanks again to @QtrItalian for telling me that this tool even existed. Now, with a little heat and a bit of fresh shellac, the roller jewel has been reset in the roller table (part of the Waltham’s balance assembly).

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  6. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    #81 walnut, Mar 26, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
    Reassembly time. First I set the balance wheel onto the new staff.

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    Then I set the balance staff in an anvil and used a stake specifically made with a notch cut out for the roller jewel to hammer/press the roller table on.

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    The last step is to put the hairspring back on. I’ll do this just before assembling the movement though as I want to touch it as little as possible to avoid any self-created issues.

    As a last check before getting too excited, I've placed the balance into the pivots on the mainplate and mounted the balance cock. Free spinning and everything appears to be a great fit!
     
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  7. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
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    The number and complexity of the weights on the balance wheel are remarkable. Are they just in standard positions for all the balance wheels a factory would produce or are they custom installed? (I assume you don’t change their position.)
     
  8. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    They should be standard locations and sizes but they are individually adjusted (some are turned out, some filed down) to adjust the center of gravity and rotational inertia. The inertia works with the hairspring to determine rate of oscillation. If the center of gravity doesn’t fall on the axis of rotation, the balance will oscillate at different rates depending on the position in 3D space of the watch. I won’t adjust anything unless I find significant errors in timing.
     
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  9. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    172
    The large ones are all for temperature compensation. The two smaller ones are to aid in fine tuning the position and final weight but this watch doesn't have specific quarter timing screws - although my two Hamilton 940s don't either and are supposed to be position adjusted from the factory. With a lot of work and practice one can get the balance poised in 4 positions. It requires correct/careful undercutting of screw heads or adding timing washers. I have found that most of the time companies "adjusted" and then had their production line follow the "adjustment" as the parts were standardized. I don't know how often the assembly line was interrogated/tested. Many Illinois Bunn Specials have the temperature screws grouped in pairs but one can see that some watches have pairs in different locations. I don't think companies tested every single watch like they do now (I could be wrong). I know railroad inspectors however would. This may help:
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  10. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
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    How accurate were the best pocket watches compared to modern day chronometers? Were railway watches “the best?”
     
  11. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    Marine Chronometers were better than 0.1 s/day but larger than most pocket watches. The Hamilton 900 series pocket watches, I’ve been told, can be dialed in better than 3 s/week. That included temperature, humidity, altitude, and other environmental changes. Typically they were adjusted to about +/-15 s/week though.

    There’s not much that can beat them in terms of modern mechanical devices because I’d you need that accuracy, you use digital or atomic clocks.

    Chronometer rating though is a strict range of limits that must be met. So anything that is a legit chronometer will be similar.
     
  12. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    I think back in the day the specs were +/- 10 sec per day and all positions needed to be within 5 seconds of each other for railway use in America. I definitely have a bunch of railway watches that I have in face-up which will remain within 3-5 seconds a week. Getting all positions dialed in is challenging. Most of these have been used/abused, etc so it is hard to guarantee one can really get it perfectly in spec any more. For instance I have a Hamilton 992e that was driving me nuts because dial up and dial down were off by 45 secs. I couldn't do vertical positions because to which would I align them to? I polished the end pivots (you can flatten one end to slow it and round an end to speed it up) but doing this here it was to no avail. Finally I bought a NOS Hamilton brand staff and pivot jewels (so all new parts) an finally after 10-15 hours of work it is back in spec...well, back in the sock drawer as its case is too mint to wear/run but a mental exercise nonetheless.
    Interestingly most wristwatches of the 1950s were "unadjusted" or adjusted to temp only. Initially, since most WWs are only worn in 3 positions it was probably felt it would average out. It wasn't really until modern wristwatches of the perhaps 1970/80s with a lower rotating mass balance, 28800 beat movement and better mainsprings that really good +/- 10 sec per day and in all positions became possible or the norm. Of course the introduction of quartz pushed this too. Actually even Rolex didn't profess 2 sec per day until maybe 10 years ago or so with their parachrome hairspring, etc, etc.
     
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  13. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
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    It used to be there was a 5 minute period when people would trickle into a business meeting; everyone with a slightly different time on their watch.

    I have a zero-jewels 1971 Timex Marlin which keeps shockingly good time.
     
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  14. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    I am able to give you all some good news today though. I woke-up in a lousy mood (that's not the good news yet, don't worry) and decided to take most of the day off of work. So to get some "me time", I've been in my lab working on the Waltham. The first walk-through of assembly is finished. There are a few things I have to address yet, one bushing that I had to reset needs depth adjusted and the mainspring is definitely slipping so I've got to get that squared away as all. I know, I know, what's the good news already?!?

    The good news is that the Waltham is alive and ticking! Even better, I've verified that the new crystal fits under the lid, the latch is still releasing easily, and the crystal clears the canon pin / hands on the watch. As I said, there is a plenty of fine tuning left to do but for me at least, this is a huge step forward finally after so many set backs.
     
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  15. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    The crystal needs to be cleaned (excess sealant removed as well) and I’ve got to finish my previously noted fixes but I had to share.

     
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  16. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    I’ve gotten the jewel adjusted but I just can’t find where/why the mainspring is slipping. Will keep trying, obviously.
     
  17. walnut

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    Ok... I spent a bit of time last night researching the mainspring issue. Turns out, there is a flaw in the design of this particular mainspring barrel. I found many novices posting about the same slip I’m experiencing and there are one or two pieces of advice that are consistently given as solution.

    1) Ensure that the last 5+ mm of the mainspring is formed to exactly follow the curve of the barrel so it isn’t in anyway attempting to pull itself off/over the hook in the outer rim to which it is supposed to catch.

    2) File the trailing edge of the hole in the spring so that it presents a “wedge” to the hook and essentially is pulled under vs. how it pulls agains it usually.

    At least it isn’t just me!
     
  18. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    Success! I removed the Waltham's mainspring today and then followed all of the processes that I came across in my research on the slipping mainspring issue. The last 5mm was reshaped into a gentle curve that follows the outer wall of the barrel to the absolute best I could get it. I used my needle files to shape the trailing edge of the hole in the mainspring which actually engages the tooth on the barrel into a wedge. Now that the mainspring is back in and the movement resting the case, I was able to get a full wind on the spring! I'm going to let it run itself out and plan on doing the timing adjustments on Sunday.

    I've also purchased (cannot remember if I posted it here or not) a Jacot tool which I'm waiting to be delivered. Jacot tools are used to polish/burnish the tiny little pivots on watch staffs. With this, I'm going to attempt to fix the end of the balance wheel staff on the Elgin. I'm not 100% confident in success as it will be my first try at this process. I do have a NOS balance staff setting in the drawer with the rest of Brian's parts though so if all else fails, we go with the original plan to replace it.




    Nota Bene: I want to express my gratitude to Brian for his patience through this whole process. He's never once pushed for me to get done faster, cut a corner, or attempt something I'm not prepared to do with the tools/skills I currently have. He's been understanding of the issues which have cropped up along the way and he's also be kind enough to wait for the Jacot tool to arrive so I may attempt it. That is definitely delaying the return of the watches at this point as I could simply replace the balance staff and be done. The patience he's showing is giving me opportunities to research and learn some extremely valuable skills. Brian, thank you!
     
  19. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    Well, you are the one who should be thanked: Thank you for taking such good care of my grandfathers’ pocket watches.

    I am glad there has been some sort of quid pro quo: The watches seem to have offered you interesting but tolerable challenges and I got to see the insides of these watches as they got fixed. I am so glad it has worked out well.

    I knew full well that sending them to an earnest gentleman-artisan still might just result in getting back a box of broken parts. I was ready for that. Instead, I am getting perfectly restored masterpieces. The technical challenges you’ve worked through are awe inspiring. Few people can dive as deeply into a hobby as you have.
     
  20. walnut

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    I'm working on timing the Waltham today. I've got it pretty close but the timing arm is all the way to one side so I think it is time to consider adjusting the weights. I don't like to do that as I do not have a proper poising tool (A poising tool allows you to adjust the screws and ensure the center of gravity is on the axis of rotation). The beat error is around 2.1ms and I want that to be below 0.5ms before I'm happy although I REALLY want it at 0.0-0.1ms which I've hit on pretty much every other watch I've returned so far. It looks SO much better than when it arrived though :D

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  21. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    If you don't mind my two cents again:
    - The timing arm (regulator) looks in the middle in the photo above (but maybe that's before you got it regulated). If so I agree It looks a little sloppy if all the way to the side. Start by seeing that the regulator pins are not too spread or bent but if all is right then perhaps adjusting weights is next if you really feel compelled.
    - As for beat (and I'd do this first before further regulation) I agree 0.5 or less on a pocket watch is what to aim for. Just keep in mind it is a little difficult to get to 0.0. 0.1 or 0.2 like in a modern wrist watch with adjustable stud. Also every adjustment means moving the collet which can flirt with danger you know about....BUT 2.1 ms is pretty "off" so.....
    - Additionally, the beat will change on a pocketwatch slightly in the vertical positions with a slowed total degree of rotation and depending on the hairspring and also depending on how wide the regulator pins are. So, you can have near perfect beat face up/down but then in vertical it can be off (a lot of times crown-right for some reason on OF watches). Either live with it or average it. In the end a close beat won't really affect timekeeping (and I won't tell your client) *laugh*.
    - A poising tool won't help at this step. It is really for the balance sans roller table (or maybe with roller table) for gross adjustment. Really at this point only a timing machine will do. That is because the hairspring and stud are "in-betweens" that can't be really accounted for on the poising tool. Keep in mind only wind it a few rotations of crown to get balance motion about 215-220 degrees face up/down which will become 170-190 in vertical to do all timing and adjustment. I didn't realize starting out but a full wind with 280-320 degrees will invert the position errors and worse at 220 degrees all vertical errors are cancelled so vertical testing needs to be done closer to 180 deg motion to register what is going on.
    ...here is where the total time invested may double.
    - Dan.
     
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  22. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    What is the purpose of the two back covers on the Waltham? For that matter, why does the back open at all?
     
  23. walnut

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    The design harkens back to when pocket watches were key wound or key set. The outer cover would protect the entire watch. Opening it would leave the inner cover in place to protect the movement but it would have one or more holes in it for the key to wind and/or set the time. Without the inner cover, the movement would be complete exposed during this, not always a safe idea. Without the outer solid lid, there would always be holes into the case for water, dirt, and dust to get in.

    The inner cover is able to be opened so the owner could admire the movement at anytime they wished or to show it off.
     
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  24. walnut

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    My “new” Jacot tool arrived! I’m going to practice on the pivots from an old Waltham wristwatch movement I have in the lab. When I’m feeling confident it’ll be time to repair the balance staff on Brian’s Elgin.

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  25. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    Glad to be providing excuses, err justifications, for buying cool new toys, err tools. :D
     
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