430 - Replacing f1 pump and accumalator preventively | FerrariChat

430 Replacing f1 pump and accumalator preventively

Discussion in '360/430' started by carguy007, Apr 3, 2021.

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  1. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #1 carguy007, Apr 3, 2021
    Have any of you guys done this on your 430 before they break?
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 tazandjan, Apr 3, 2021
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  3. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #3 flash32, Apr 3, 2021
    If you feel to do something as a preventative matter ..just do the accumulator not the pump ..pump will be good for a long long time as long as accumulator and relay are fine


    But there is the saying don't fix it unless it is broken .. just be aware of changes in prime time , pump running etc
    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  4. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

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    #4 mwstewart, Apr 3, 2021
    In my humble opinion it is a waste of money. The time taken for the pump to prime after unlocking the car is as good an indication of pump health as any - notwithstanding a sudden failure, and most other maladies can be identified with data logging/analysis.
     
  5. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    #5 mike32, Apr 3, 2021
    If you have access to a launch 431, you can see the cut in/ cut out points , gives a good indication of how the system is working pressure wise
     
  6. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #6 carguy007, Apr 3, 2021
    I thought this too - I can hear the pump working every minute or two which seems like that is too much when diriving and just sitting at a light. When I unlock the car and open the door the pump fires up and goes without any issues. Nothing unusual there. I am thinking I must have some kind of leak however. I also now will occasionally miss a third or fourth gear up shift/downshift.

    I will start with accumulator and go from there. I will also take your advice and leave the pump alone. It is clearly working and likely working too frequently due to the potential leak.

    How often should the F1 pump cycle? I am sure you are aware and get it all the time but your 16m conversion is Epic!
     
  7. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #7 flash32, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
    This will help
    ENgine on - no less than 1 min cycle is good
    engine off- key on anything more than 2 is good
    4-5 second cycle time is normal - listen to pump as well - does it sound like it is straining

    My first recommendations if you have problems shifting is check actuator screws and while you are there bleed actuator properly
    Do a relearn as well
    If pump is running less than 2 seconds then change accumulator
     
  8. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #8 carguy007, Apr 3, 2021
    Engine off seems in spec.

    when running and engine on for instance just sitting at a light as long as it’s not cycling more than once in a minute you are good? Did I understand this correctly.

    IE: if it cycles twice in one minute bad, but if it cycled twice in 1 minute 30 seconds or so that’s fine?

    I planned to replace the accumulator as the car is an 07 with 32k and I can’t imagine it lasting this long just being some rubber.

    thanks for the general guidance here. Extremely helpful.
     
  9. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #9 flash32, Apr 3, 2021
    with engine on ..never should cycle more than every min .. so two cycles should be more than 2 mins etc
    If you are cycling more than every min .. based on the other post you mentioned .. it may seem to me that EV3 line has air in it or the screw for that line is loose
    A bad accumulator would make the pump stay on for less than 3 seconds usually

    It seems the advice I gave you on the other thread stands
    bleed actuator
    tighten screws
    run relearn
     
  10. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #10 carguy007, Apr 4, 2021
    A bad accumulator shortens pump cycles? IE: when the car is off and open the door would only be 2-3second vs 5-6 seconds? That’s interesting would have thought the opposite.

    Will certainly follow advice. If I were to remove actuator to check bleed screws would I need to rebleed? Or if the Screws are tight can you in theory just pull actuator and put back on.

    I would like to just check them quickly as it seems straightforward to remove actuator.
     
  11. deebo

    deebo Rookie

    Nov 20, 2020
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    Josh
    #11 deebo, Apr 4, 2021
    My pump was running way too long like 20-30 sec sporadically. I had a mechanic look into it and he replaced the relay and the accumulator. Now the pump literally runs less than 1-2 seconds when you open the door. I was told this is a good thing as it primes quicker. Also got a second opinion and the 2nd mechanic said same thing


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  12. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #12 carguy007, Apr 4, 2021
    According to this:

    A bad accumulator would make the pump stay on for less than 3 seconds usually.

    This seems the opposite of what you experienced. I agree with that the less the pump primes the healthier and less bleed off there is from the system. If the conversion was not so absurdly priced I would just ditch the f1 and never have to deal with this again:).
     
  13. deebo

    deebo Rookie

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    #13 deebo, Apr 4, 2021
    Haha I hear ya. Then I’m reminded of what a joy it is to finally own a boyhood dream, even with all the issues


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  14. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #14 flash32, Apr 4, 2021
    Probably more than you had a bad relay than accumulator

    Accumulators act as a reserve like an expansion tank on your hot water system.. when they go bad the pressure in system increases rapidly and decreases rapidly

    Long pump times are weak relays and bad pumps usually

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  15. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #15 flash32, Apr 4, 2021
    And more likely the bleed that they did while changing accumulator helped as well

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  16. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #16 carguy007, Apr 4, 2021
    On cold start engine off the pump primes for around four seconds.

    when driving I have heard the pump prime twice in a min. One time the pump primed and then maybe 20 seconds later primed again. The primes are slightly shorter than the engine off primes. I am going to start with accumulator and try and get my ha dd on a launch.
     
  17. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #17 flash32, Apr 4, 2021
    Once you get a launch we can look at the pressures, leakage rates etc and narrow down

    At this point based on your post sounds more like internal leakage ...loose screws , solenoid valves etc

    My course of action remains the same.. pull codes , graph pressures and leakage etc ..change accumulator, bleed actuator and tighten screws and go from there.. the diag will let us know if we should change course

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  18. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #18 flash32, Apr 4, 2021
    Just a follow up .. when you said pump ran 2 times in one minute did you mean with shifts

    You should manage about three shifts per cycle

    Engine running no shifts .. about 1 min to 1.5 min

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  19. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #19 carguy007, Apr 4, 2021
    I was referring to just driving around at low speed.

    If I just let it on in neutral, with engine will I hear hear the pump prime? If so will do this with a stopwatch and just stand outside the car in the back so I can hear perfect.

    the primes of the pump with the car on should be shorter than the initial pump prime when the engine is off - correct?
     
  20. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #20 flash32, Apr 4, 2021
    Correct ..the first pump run may be longer

    Engine on in neutral ..listen to cycle times and on time
    Do the same with key in engine off
    Also with engine off . Switch gears and see how many gear changes you get before you hear pump

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  21. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #21 carguy007, Apr 5, 2021
    Will report back soon. I am trying to figure out which diag tool to buy right now also and have ordered the accumulator (Fiat part as it is way cheaper and the same). I figured the accumulator should be replaced regardless. It is close to 15 years old now and can't last forever.
     
    flash32 likes this.
  22. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #22 carguy007, Apr 6, 2021
    Car on it is very hard to hear the pump prime due to headers and exhaust. If I sit in the car and engine on in N, I don't hear any priming at all. I sat for about six minutes than had to go to work. The car was started from dead cold, so not sure that factors into this in any way.

    Car on with engine on it is hard to hear, but I think I am hearing it every 40-50 seconds. They are short cycles.

    Car off if I shift to N - 1 - N, it primes. The prime lasts for about 2.8 seconds. (I assume this is normal range as you mentioned 3 shifts)

    Car off in N, sat for a while and did not hear anything. (is this indicative of some kind of issue)

    The pump primes seem fairly short and fast and question if they should maybe be longer. If I look at the F1 resevoir and wait to see how quick it fills up after it is primes can I garner any more insights about operation of the system or health of pump/accumulator?
     
  23. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #23 carguy007, Apr 6, 2021

    Car on it is very hard to hear the pump prime due to headers and exhaust. If I sit in the car and engine on in N, I don't hear any priming at all. I sat for about six minutes than had to go to work. The car was started from dead cold, so not sure that factors into this in any way.

    Car on with engine on it is hard to hear, but I think I am hearing it every 40-50 seconds. They are short cycles.

    Car off if I shift to N - 1 - N, it primes. The prime lasts for about 2.8 seconds. (I assume this is normal range as you mentioned 3 shifts)

    Car off in N, sat for a while and did not hear anything. (is this indicative of some kind of issue)

    The pump primes seem fairly short and fast and question if they should maybe be longer. If I look at the F1 resevoir and wait to see how quick it fills up after it is primes can I garner any more insights about operation of the system or health of pump/accumulator?
     
  24. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #24 flash32, Apr 6, 2021
    Unfortunately
    .with what you mentioned above, it is hard to narrow to one component..but 2.8 is short ..so accumulator looks like one things that can be defective ..but the under a minute cycle time (engine running) and extended (normal)!cycle times with engine off could mean a bad clutch solenoid

    The only way is to either graph with diag tool or just replace one item (accumulator) and do a bleed and see where we stand

    I prefer to look at data and try to narrow it even further (not always possible as you can see with various shops changing things )

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  25. carguy007

    carguy007 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2013
    843
    #25 carguy007, Apr 11, 2021
    I have a new Accumulator in route. I bleed the system and did relearn, as you likely saw. Car shifts fantastic now. I am still going to do some logging and see how my vitals are.

    With engine off it should be about every 5-6 min the pump primes?

    What are symptoms of a bad clutch solenoid? Do they go out often or become weak. Solenoiid is basically a switch?
     
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