812 VS Rumors | Page 311 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. Boots

    Boots Formula 3

    Jan 17, 2020
    1,663
    Canada
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    Jake
    I think Lamborghini gets a ton of attention from the younger generation as well, and Ferrari knows this. I strongly agree that decision making in Maranello is pushed by that, rather than the minority of through and through enthusiasts.
     
  2. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
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    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Just not credible to say there is no noticeable difference. Ferrari explained how they worked very hard to fix the GPF sound and they they acknowledge their customers believe sound is very important. The resulting "unique" sound is sadly inferior to the shrieking signature one they own. Saying it is better is to me just settling for the current solution. Keep the sound and lower the particle emission with technology. I have to believe they could have done it but perhaps not with this model.
     
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  3. Doktor Evil

    Doktor Evil Rookie

    Apr 22, 2011
    14
    Technically, the battery is simply the fuel... the Motor(s) are the engine

    There are 2 things to play with in that mix just like a traditional ICE set up - the potency of the “fuel” in terms of how much power can it store, how quick can it charge and how long can it last ....and the power and responsiveness of the “engine(s)”

    I see a future for Ferrari in the EV space, but it will be about ensuring an electric Ferrari still FEELS and HANDLES like a Ferrari... how they make is SOUND like a Ferrari will be interesting to see ...maybe that part of the legacy will be retired with the ICE.

    I have a Tesla model S and it’s ridiculously fast - but it’s a million miles away from being a Ferrari. That’s the challenge I believe. When all cars are EVs how do Ferrari stand out? Just being fast won’t cut it - that’s where capturing the passion will be key.

    That said, I can’t wait for my 812c to arrive - it’s going to be a permanent addition to my garage and I look forward to enjoying the sound of that V12 for many years to come!


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  4. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 2, 2005
    2,503
    Earth
    https://ndb.technology/

    If this stuff is real - its limitless energy forever - NDB - Nano Diamond Batteries !!!
     
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  5. Boots

    Boots Formula 3

    Jan 17, 2020
    1,663
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    Jake
    Anyone have any good sources to learn more about batteries and their application within the automotive world? Would like to become better versed in this subject :)
     
  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    It's been my understanding that this thread is about the Ferrari 812 VS and not about batteries or Teslas.........

    Marcel Massini
     
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  7. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2016
    1,574
    Piedmont
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    Marco
    I was discussing this very topic with a few friends of mine just yesterday and we were thinking that Ferrari could record samples from every past models and play/sync them with throttle inputs. Heresy for some, necessary compromise for others...
     
  8. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    4,186
    Cheshire
    I like it. Congrats too all buyers. It’ll be great, and will obviously be a good place to put money from a short term investment standpoint.

    Having said that, aside from the aesthetics (which are subjective) I think this car shows that we really are reaching the limits of what’s possible with ICE cars. Ferrari have obviously worked very very hard to improve this car over the standard 812, but overall, the improvements are marginal at best - a few kg saved here and there, a few tenths improvement in lap time etc. Sure, the marketing docs and the press reports will make it sound like some kind of giant leap, but if we are being honest, it isn’t.
     
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  9. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    7,282
    Le caylar (France)
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    mathieu Jeantet
    Agree , reminds me the Porsche 992 GT3 But ..
    Maybe the driving experience is where the biggest improvements have been made?
     
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  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    Outstanding post and analysis, thank you very much.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  11. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    4,186
    Cheshire
    Perhaps. But as most won’t get driven beyond 20% - 30% of their capability, it’s unlikely to be something most drivers will ever get to experience. Even a standard 812 is far beyond true capability of most. Undoubtedly, it will be an amazing experience though. The sound, the drama, the whole sense of occasion for every drive will make it very very special to own.
     
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  12. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    Passione
    What a depressing video
     
  13. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Jan 10, 2011
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    California
    #7763 gzachary, May 8, 2021
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
    I wanted to pick up from your post because it is a good question. It is also revisited by people outside of this thread and this time.

    To help all of us talk about this, I thought an interesting example could be the TdF vs. F12 questions that arose after launch of the TdF as a proxy. I am doing that as I and members of the group have had these driving experiences. And many have heard of them. And a lot of people may remember similar questions before the TdF was finally tested by customers.

    If I remember correctly, when the TdF was announced there were similar questions. That there were marginal gains in various dimensions. Not a huge difference in many areas. On the surface, it looked very different. But in reality, the car had a brand new design angle for the driving experience.

    When I had the chance to test drive the F12 for a day, I found it a great GT car. Plenty of power.

    The first time I drove my TdF it seemed like a planet away from the F12. It wasn’t the numbers. It was the driving experience of how it all came together. Now I seemed like I was riding a dragon. Like a bat out of hell. I always remember the first drive in the TdF. I don’t remember the feeling in and after the drive in the F12. Not that it was bad. Just that it wasn’t overwhelmingly brilliant like the TdF. I remember after that drive, I came home, my wife looked at me, I had a huge smile, and I also looked like I had been electrified. The smile and electrified look remained for awhile. LOL. I didn’t have that with the F12.

    In fact my TdF experience was way more thrilling experience my 812 as well.
    If we abstract out depreciation and just say they cost the same, I would take the TdF even though it has less power and it’s not as easy to the apply power to the road like the 812. It’s just more fun. The 812 felt like the F12 in it’s overall driving experience. As a result, I am guessing we the same will happen with the Competizione.

    The TdF was just the right reconstruction and alignment and marginal gains of the systems that changed the driving to create that exciting and brilliant experience.

    Now, only a few know the answer of what these experiences of driving the 812C are like. This will be true until reviews and cars are in owners hands.

    IMO and for myself, I personally know that the value of that TdF experience can’t be matched by buying the equivalent monetary cost of an F12 and an 812 and another great car.

    Let’s say the denominator in the ”value” equation could be that buying multiple cars (like F12+812+something) as opposed t one car is the same amount of money. But we could all be talking about something different in the numerator. To me, the experience of what I get from the TdF experience is the numerator. For some others it might not.

    As a result, I believe that’s why answering this value question is very difficult to do. Not all of may use the same numerator personally.

    If we are constraining “value” to use the numerator with similar specific performance statistics (which on a road course are just tangents of the experience), then the economic utility curve comes into play. Then thoughts can come to depreciation naturally as it is part of an economic utility curve. I would suggest that the risk of depreciation is on the 4 car , not scarce, car purchase than the 1 scarce car purchase. Which probably appreciates. So several years later, the “value” of the multiple car purchase could lose relative to the single car.

    This similar question is also levied on customers of Ferrari by customers of other manufacturers who are at lower price points for the same “0-60 mph and 1/4 mile time” that are popular here in the US. From spending time on the track, I learned that these statistics are just tangents trying to capture the driving experience numerically. Like trying to describe your significant other to someone numerically.

    As a smart former business partner of mine has said “Information is alienated experience.”

    As usual, all IMO and sharing thoughts to contribute.
     
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  14. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    Feb 24, 2016
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    For my personal taste the 1960 250 GT SWB Berlinetta Competizione by Scagliety painted in Giallo fly as shown in the picture is one of the most beautiful sports cars ever made and a timeless beauty.
    The F12 TDF I’m sure that will become a future classic and its a car that shows design details whose inspiration certainly came from the 250 GTO, 275 GTB and 275 GTB4. Despite of the fact that the 250 GT SWB doesn’t seem to have contributed to Manzoni’s inspiration while designing the TDF, the fact that Giallo fly is one of my favorite Ferrari colors of all times made me try to reproduce it on a TDF even knowing that’s an impossible task. Below is how it looks side by side with the 250 GT SWB.
    If I was writing this post 61 years from now, that's already the age of the 250 GT SWB, I’m sure I would say that the F12 TDF is a timeless beauty and one of the most beautiful Ferraris ever built.


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  15. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    Passione
    Agreed I sometimes wonder why the TDF doesn’t wear the Pininfarina badge - it almost feels like they were still the design house behind the car and agreed a deal for the badge not to be put on that car - looking at the design of the new cars I find it were difficult to believe PF were not involved in the design of that car
     
  16. Napoli

    Napoli Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2017
    958
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    NOYB, Ray!
    Yeah, DeMuro has that effect. He's such a sap. :eek:
     
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  17. JJ77

    JJ77 Formula Junior

    Oct 3, 2020
    492
    Edit... so it’s a new paint Grigio Competizone, very similar to Titanio on the configurator, slightly darker and to my eyes sits between Grigio Titanio & Grigio Silverstone in the grey paint family. Any idea on cost of this Special Paint, bit late for this one but might have time for the SF90...
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  18. dolphins08430

    dolphins08430 Formula Junior
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  19. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    for each coupe and A.
     
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  20. Tommy Boy

    Tommy Boy Karting

    Aug 27, 2020
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    Thomas
    Flushing this out a bit more ...

    if you were to survey young car enthusiasts (irrespective of future wealth prospects) preference between Lambo and Ferrari, you would probably see a high percentage say Lambo. But the percentage would probably not exceed 50%.

    If you were to survey upwardly mobile (future rich) and brand conscious young people, and include both car enthusiast and non-enthusiast in the survey group, Ferrari would probably crush Lambo.

    Hence Ferrari's intense focus on marketing.
     
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  21. Tommy Boy

    Tommy Boy Karting

    Aug 27, 2020
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    Thomas
    This is the kind of post that brings me to FChat... Thank you
     
  22. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    #7772 Lukeylikey, May 8, 2021
    Last edited: May 8, 2021

    I have inserted some points in between yours above, Hope it’s clear enough. Good and interesting post though.
     
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  23. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    The jet analogy falters the moment you stop to consider that jets are not reliant on tires for their speed/handling/performance. 3000hp is silly. The envelope is being pushed the wrong way. Most all of us would happily trade additional performance for additional emotion. I will never need a car faster, or more powerful, than my new 765LT. But a lightweight decontented mid-engine Ferrari fitted with the basic 812 V12 engine sounds pretty fun even if it would not be nearly as fast as a SF90, or even my 765LT for that matter.
     
  24. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    The problem I have is that it’s not the consumers that are guiding the changing market conditions, it’s the bureaucrats and technocrats. That’s where my heartburn comes from. If not for the regulatory environment we find ourselves in, the market would be splitting in two: ICE variants and electrified variants. Some companies might choose to offer both. Instead, we are seeing ICE getting forcibly removed from the equation, and not because they fell out of favor with the consumers.
     
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  25. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    Sure, that’s easy to see. What fault is that of Ferrari though and what can they do to change it? Adapt and survive, or don’t. Where customer preferences come in is that manufacturers will educate customer tastes by finding ways to differentiate themselves and by producing cars that consumers will buy. I have never ridden a motorcycle. I don’t dare now because I’m so used to going quickly on four wheels. For some, I’m missing out on a whole world of enjoyment and excitement. But my taste has been ‘educated’ by what I have used over these years and watched on TV (F1 instead of Moto GP). There will still be motorsport in the future and there will still be people who want to drive a sports car. If those two things stop then granted, Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren might all be finished.
     
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