360 Spider Random Misfires

Hey, I have a 2004 360 Spider recently acquired. Previous owner removed cats and has non foulers on the rear O2 sensors. He also said he had just replaced the spark plugs.
It has a recurring CEL, originally random misfire, cylinder 2, and cylinder 7. I swapped coils from 7 to 6 and 2 to 3. Retest. Codes for random misfire, cylinder 2 and 3. I label the now #3 coil as faulty, inspect plugs, #2 plug broke on removal, I suspect over tightening. Replaced broken plug. Moved suspect faulty coil to #4.
Retest. Codes for random misfire, cylinder 3 and 8.
Today I got a scan tool that can read data from the vehicle, and discovered further codes:
Right Motronic
P1452 Secondary Air Pump Circuit
P1446 Catylitic Converter Protection
P0139 Rear O2 Slow Response
P0116 Water Temp. Plausibility
Left Motronic
P0300 Random Misfire
P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire

It does not go into closed loop. O2 sensors do not switch (all 4). It does not blow warm air from the vents. From what I've read on here, I should look into intake gaskets, does that make sense? Also wondering about the precat breakdown? I'm not sure but I'm guessing the large converter looking manifolds are pre cats? I have not done compression as misfire is moving. I suspect a faulty coolant temperature sensor, or faulty O2 sensors could also be a cause. Any tips or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

Welcome to the 360 world. First off let me say good job on hitting the misfire on #3. I have had a couple 360 show up with misfire codes on cylinder #x. I had one that was clearly missing. I started at cylinder #3 that had the code. No difference. I then went to cylinder #1 and started swapping the coil. If it didn't stop the mis, I put it back and went to the next cylinder. It was actually #8 and the mis stopped. I then left the new coil in #8 and sent them on their way. It has been running strong for a couple years now. I have seen post about how someone had a misfire and just replaced all of the coils. Also, as it is almost always random, you can't just do it one at a time as I did. Most times you can not actually here the mis. The software for mis detection is not spot on. It knows the mis is detected but in my experience, the software is rarely correct on which one is actually misfiring.

You should have pre cats in the headers. I have had one recently that was breaking up. It had not damaged the engine in any way as it had just started to come apart. I had the cats off and could see debris in the inlet of the cats. I replaced the headers with aftermarket ones and it is running well.
360s are also known to have very poor thermostats. I have had several that just had zero heat from the heater because the coolant just wasn't warm enough to make heat. Replacing the thermostat should make it better. You may still find that they over cool in cool weather.

With no cats, you are going to have issues. Unless you have the software modified by someone that knows the car and software. I did recently have a new client with a new purchase that would not pass emission test in my state (Georgia, US), it had been reflashed. I believe it had no cats at some point although it was sold intact with original parts installed. I was able to reflash with original software and solve the issue. So without state testing, you can make changes to get what you want.

 

We dont do emissions testing where I am, however I do want to make sure the CEL will not return because of the missing cats. I suspect the non foulers are doing their job as it doesn't have cat efficiency codes, but does have a slow response O2 code I believe caused by the non foulers.
I smoke tested the intake this morning, no sign of an intake gasket leak. I ordered 4 coils for it. They will take some time to come in. It's quite likely that I'm dealing with more than one issue. Is 60C warm enough to enter closed loop on these? The Reservoir was very hot when data read 60C engine temp.
I would like to confirm I have the cylinder numbers correct. Passenger side of the vehicle, from the front to back are cylinders 1, 2, 3, and 4 correct?
Also, I cannot seem to find fuel trim/adaptive on the ECU data list. Is it called something different?

Thanks for the help!

 

P0116 Water Temp. Plausibility is often the coolant temperature sender.
Smoke testing is not as easy as it appears on a 360 or on any e-throttle car. Left intake MAF goes to right side and vice versa at low RPM. And to accurately smoke the intake, you must either do it on the plenum side (of the MAF) or electronically open the e-throttle plates with a test device.

 

I see, yes I adapted to the passenger side MAF. I'm not sure if the scan tool I got will be able to actuate the throttle, I will have to check and see. I imagine I will end up using propane or acetylene around the intake if not. That should still work yes? I debated that route anyways as the smoke uses very little pressure, whereas the intake is most often in a vacuum state. I dont see any real indication of running lean, and don't hear a vacuum leak, but have read here that it's a common misfire cause on the 360.

Where are the exhaust thermocouplers to be located? I see them in some straight pipe that is where the cats used to be, but it appears that there is a "fitting" of sorts on the pre cats that has nothing attached to it. Could this be a cause of any of the listed problems? I would imagine if they were relocated that the old location should have been plugged off.

 

You need fuel trim numbers, before going any further. The could be called adaptive or multiplicative values. With a modern engine, you won't necessarily see leanness or richness until fuel trim exceeds, positive or negative, what the engine management system is capable of correcting. Diagnostic become moot without this information.

 

I agree fuel trim is critical. I am using an Autel 919S Pro, it should be able to see any data pid available. However the only mention of adaptive I saw had a unit in degrees Celsius. I will take another look at it in a couple days though.

 

Go to the Generic OBDII side (vice selecting manufacturer), you will see the short term/long term fuel trims in the Live Data PIDS. It's mandatory for all manufacturers to display certain PIDS in Generic OBDII. Add the two together (short and long) to get total fuel trim. Anything above 10% is cause for concern, a DTC will set for anything above (total) roughly 25%. Positive fuel trims are lean condition (adding fuel) and negative fuel trims (subtracting fuel) is a rich condition. Remember that you will only see one bank in each selection (right bank is 14 and left bank is 11). Long Term is adaptive fuel and short term is instantaneous fuel. Short term comes on only in closed loop while long term is stored in memory (will erase when battery disconnected). Long Term trims goal is to keep short term at 0% +/- 3%, so if short term is at +10% long term will drive to +10% to bring short term down to 0%.

 

I appreciate the great explanation. I am a licensed automotive service technician, I am familiar with fuel trims, just not with Ferrari. I can't get it to go into closed loop, so trim data will certainly be limited if there is any. I dont see any response from O2 at all. Whether that is cause or effect though I am not sure. When you say right bank is 14 and left bank is 11, are those just example trim numbers you mean? Or is this how Ferrari labels them? Having 2 separate ECUs for the engine is also new to me. I work at a Chrysler dealership, Vipers are the only thing I've seen that on before.

 

Well.....first off, get a set of used Cats. If you are persistent you can pick up a pair used for around 500. Also are your manifolds OEM with good pre-cats or are they aftermarket? If aftermarket that could be your Secondary Air issue.
It sounds like you picked up a neglected 360 and I bet you are just scratching the surface. Your misfires or the water temp is keeping it from going into closed loop. I think that "fitting" you are talking about is the test port for the gas analyzer.
On some Scan Tools the banks are listed as 11 and 14. Use a Generic Scan Tool for testing, that way the Data PIDS are familiar.

 

I believe they are OEM? I've attached a picture of the port I'm talking about, maybe you can tell from that if they are OEM? As for their condition, that's an unknown to me.
View attachment 3142688

 

I believe they are OEM? I've attached a picture of the port I'm talking about, maybe you can tell from that if they are OEM? As for their condition, that's an unknown to me.
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I believe they are OEM? I've attached a picture of the port I'm talking about, maybe you can tell from that if they are OEM? As for their condition, that's an unknown to me.
View attachment 3142690

 

That is the thermo-coupler port. Do you have one at all in the car?

 

That's what I thought. There is another port in the straight pipe that replaced the cats that has a sensor threaded into it. I assume those are the thermocouplers, but why the other ports are open, or why we would be measuring temperature so far away from the engine I do not know.
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You NEED to block off any open ports, especially ones close to the O2 sensors.

 

UODATE: I apologize for the long delay, it took some time to get parts, and then to find time to get back at the car. I opted to replace all 8 coil packs and coolant temperature sensor. I did block off the thermocoupler ports as well. Car has been running great for a little while now. I am however having a separate issue with the convertible top. I will post a new thread about it if I can't find the info through searching on here first. Thanks to everyone for the help with this!