Newbie 308 GTS 1978 I can buy for $25k | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Newbie 308 GTS 1978 I can buy for $25k

Discussion in '308/328' started by mrnation8, Jun 5, 2021.

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  1. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
    15,476
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    SMG
    Engine rebuild costs... Here's what I've learned over the yrs. Given the age and individual unique condition of each engine it's very difficult to say it'll cost X amount.

    It can vary from $15k for a pristine zero issue engine to skies the limit on an abused, everything is wrong or hot rod build. Having a knowledgeable shop rebuild the engine will always be more expensive, but will save a number of headaches. The biggest hassle is parts aquisition and the time it takes for some of the harder to source stuff. DIY is very doable and not crazy difficult, it is an engine. Lots of resources to help with the quirks of ferrari.

    I'd be surprised if this particular engine needed such a rebuild. Low mileage and stored.
     
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  2. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    SMG
    Yeah, it takes a lot of ignoring serious running issues to crack a cylinder head. Prior owner must've driven it into the ground. Happens... But not really common. Piston valve kissing is more common then that and even that isn't crazy common in normal driving/ownership.

    The 308 engine series is pretty robust. The gearbox is a friggin tank. Keep it serviced and driven and it should be trouble free, not Honda level but more exciting. They are one of the only vehicles I've ever owned that fits the jealous girlfriend attitude... High maintenance beauties that will never let you forget it. But oh so much fun.
     
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  3. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
    8,178
    Worcester, England
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    Phill J
    Psssst........Ferrari's dirty little engine secret: They are actually quite basic in their construction.

    As basic as an 8 valve push-rod? - No, not quite.

    But once you do a bit of studying, and get your head around the twin overhead cam engines, you'll discover that it's still basic engine engineering.

    There's no fancy valve control systems, it's a simple belt driven system.

    There are no exotic materials used - It's all pretty much the same material as American V8's used.

    If you've seen prices for engine rebuilds @ £70K to $100K - They must be aiming at super rich owners of Ferrari's, who know jack s**t about cars, and simply write out blank cheques, and then brag about how much they paid to repair/restore their cars!

    If you want a cheaper Italian over-head cam engine to practice on, before tackling a Ferrari 308/328 V8, then I'd suggest a FIAT X1/9 engine. It a single overhead cam engine, not a twin overhead cam, but the basics are exactly the same - Bucket shim valve clearances, belt driven cams, and all about top end power, rather than low end grunt.

    It's not just the engine that is basic engineering, the whole car is - Take a close look and you'll see what I mean.

    $25K for any 308 GTS in this day and age though, is a suspiciously low price!
     
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  4. Imatk

    Imatk Formula Junior

    May 6, 2007
    290
    I would get someone qualified that has worked on these cars and knows the "ins and outs" of them to take a look at it first.

    Not saying don't buy it, but just so you'll have an idea of what kind of bill you may be facing.

    My biggest issue / miscalculation was the cost of parts. So if it was ME and I were to do it over again that's what I would do.
     
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  5. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 World Champ

    Troll ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
    118
    Buchanan, Georgia
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    Chris Nation
    Ok, so it’s a go. I appreciate all the comments and information and will update everything once I get the car. A little more history from the owner though- owned the car for approximately 15 years (has a binder full of paperwork and all that I’ll go through once he’s back in town). Car was driven every other week by his dad (who owned several cars like I stated above) until he was unable to drive anymore around 2010. It was then stored in his garage on a trickle charge. In around 2012 they fired up the car to drive around and white smoke came out the back and the temperature showed the car was heating up. Since then it’s just been fired a few times and only for less than 5 minutes to keep anything from overheating. Original 50k miles and no rust or major appearance issues just that the gasket is blown or something else is wrong. He said it didn’t overheat (so hopefully no warping) but that the whitish/grey smoke mixed with temp rising let them know to shut off the car. Again, if it were a Chevy with 50k miles I would just be thinking it’s the head gasket is allowing some coolant to dump to exhaust causing the white smoke and since I didn’t see any oil in the coolant, although it’s possible since I haven’t had possession yet to drain it out.
     
  7. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
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    Chris Nation
    What?
     
  8. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 World Champ

    We have a lot of ppl on this forum who out of nowhere comes with crazy stories, no post cheap cars and disappear. Maybe u are not one of them. Pics or it didn’t happen they say


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
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    Buchanan, Georgia
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    Chris Nation
    I understand now. Give me a week and I’ll post the car and all the details- I’ll even do a YouTube vid on it lol.
     
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  10. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 World Champ

    No worries!! Enjoy in good health!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  11. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
    8,178
    Worcester, England
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    Phill J
    Hmmm... Was it white smoke, or white steam?

    I've got an '89 328 GTS, and if she hasn't been run for a while, she can blow out a bit of steam until everything heats up fully (nothing like as bad as all the BMW's I've ever owned though - Now those cars have steam coming out the exhaust like a steam train when cold! :eek::D)

    Starting a car up and running it for less than 5 minutes each time is one of the worst things you can do for a car, as the car never gets off its "cold cycle", and so is basically over-fueling every time it is run. This can leave un-burnt fuel in the the cylinders, which in turn can leak past piston rings, and wash protective oil off the cylinder walls.

    They meant well, starting the engine up, keeping it from seizing up, but may have caused other issues.

    It would be really useful to know why there was so much concern about the engine temperature rising, and some idea as to how fast the temperature does rise.

    For $25K though, the car is still worth it, even if the engine has issues - believe me (as well as others), these engines can be rebuilt for much, much less than $70K ~$100K (I'm not convinced Ferrari themselves would charge that amount for a 308 engine rebuild!)
     
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  12. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
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    Buchanan, Georgia
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    Chris Nation
    I’m glad to hear I was way off on the price of rebuild! I’m almost thinking the same way and maybe it’s not as bad as they thought? My dad and I looked at it yesterday for a few hours and I’m in love with the car. I didn’t see any coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant- now I didn’t drain it but I checked the dipstick, we looked down as well got a piece of cloth to grab some oil out of the heads, and looked and felt in the coolant reservoir and we didn’t see anything. Since the car was driven almost daily before being parked (due to the owner falling ill) I’d like to also see how fast the temp rises. I’m not saying it’s not a head gasket dumping some coolant on the exhaust as it very well may be thats the case but it could also be beneficial to check the fans are working, the water pump is turning freely, and just see how hot it’s getting. It would be amazing to be a water pump issue although even a head gasket is very doable. I guess I’ll find out on the journey.
     
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  13. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Aug 28, 2005
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    Gordon
    Congratulations! Just to be absolutely clear - before you ever run that engine again, CHANGE THE TIMING BELTS. If you want a list of other things to do while you're doing the timing belts (and timing belt tensioner bearings), we can help - but don't mess around with starting the engine for a few minutes here and there to find the white smoke problem. If a tensioner bearing seizes or the timing belt strips teeth or breaks, you'll very quickly bend valves or break valves and ruin pistons and cylinders, and then you will be rebuilding the engine. The factory timing belt change interval is 15K miles or 3 years, whichever comes first. Many of us run the timing belts to 5 - 7 years comfortably, but that's about the limit of what anyone here recommends.

    Cheers,
    Gordon
     
  14. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
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    Thanks! So timing belts and tensioner bearings, drain/replace all fluids, and change v-belts and any hoses I come up on. Anything else that is absolutely necessary before chasing down white smoke? Do you recommend a certain place to buy these items from?
     
  15. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Nov 26, 2001
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    Ricambi America should have a whole kit for the belt replacement, and while you're in there put in the upgraded Hill Engineering belt tensioner bearings. There's lots of threads on how to do a timing belt change. Remember, it's an interference engine, so valve timing is critical.

    As mentioned earlier, you really should look at the fuel lines as well.

    One thing to note, the 308 engine is essentially 2 FIAT 4 cylinder motors mated together. They have separate ignition systems, so it is very possible to be running on just one bank. The car will sound fine, but be down on power and dumping fuel in the exhaust. When you put it back together make sure both banks are running.

    On the smoke: mine steams vapor out of one exhaust for a bit while it warms up. That's perfectly normal.
     
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  16. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
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    I’m going to at least get a quote from a local shop that works on Ferraris to see what they charge for the timing belt, water pump, bearings etc. to have to done just to see if I want to try that route to have it done quickly since I’m swamped right now. If I had those things done then I could tinker with the car and check carbs as well as see what smoke/temp issues it may be having. Do you know ballpark price on what is reasonable for that type of service. I just got off the phone and am waiting to hear back with a quote. Thanks to everyone for being so helpful!
     
  17. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
    3,079
    SanFrancisco BayArea
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    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    That is the big conundrum with 308 ownership. The belts are $36 each and the tensioner bearings as $100-ish so its a $200 job if you DIY. I don’t know the exact book labor time for the job but it is probably something like 10 hours. Its a lot of work. That means taking it to a pro needs to be expensive.
     
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  18. wildcat326

    wildcat326 Formula 3
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    Dec 10, 2012
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    Sounds like a great Phase I, but remember, in addition to the carb fuel hoses, there's the filler neck hose and cross-over pipe connectors between the tanks (prepare for swearing as you try to change those out). Scuderia Rampante used to sell a beautiful (if a bit pricey) set of ethanol-safe hoses for this bit. One little doo-dad I'd recommend examining is: there's a vacuum line running from the rear driver side carb, which goes down through the door sill to your brake booster in front. About a foot down that line is a one-way check valve. These are no longer made, so save the original, but there are super-cheap substitutes available online. Many 308 newbies who've picked up disused/long-stored examples say the brakes feel "wooden" and unresponsive. I found on my car that the little valve was completely seized and no longer functional, so I wasn't getting much brake assist. Cheap to test by sucking through both ends, and cheap to replace if you find it not working.
     
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  19. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
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    With regard to vapor lines coming off the fuel tanks, DON’T just remove the clamp and start twisting because almost guaranteed you will break the nipple where it’s soldered to the tank. Best to score the rubber hose at the nipple with a utility knife and then break it free.
     
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  20. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
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    Broke a heater core post on a Nova one time doing that exact stupid thing lol!
     
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  21. mrnation8

    mrnation8 Karting

    Jun 5, 2021
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    Thanks! Yeah I’m thinking with such a rare car (to me) that I’ll prob keep everything I potentially take off! Thanks for that information because I have def been guilty of just discarding original items only to regret it later.
     
  22. ridege55

    ridege55 Formula 3
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    May 9, 2017
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    This thread reminds me of the 1978 308 GTB from Car Trek. The Car Wizard from Hoovie's Garage purchased the car for about $25k and is in the process of restoring it. Here are the episodes:








     
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  23. wildcat326

    wildcat326 Formula 3
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    Dec 10, 2012
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    If you’re also going to do the vapor lines in addition to the wet fuel hoses, Google “David Feinberg Ferrari.” Legendary Ferrari tech who used to be in Bedford NH but I think has moved to Florida. He used to sell complete kits of 308 fuel hose replacements in proper spec, which can be hard to source individually. The breather hoses from the gas tanks use a rare Tygon hose,$$
     
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  24. wildcat326

    wildcat326 Formula 3
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    Dec 10, 2012
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    This is particularly true of all fuel hose and vapor hose clamps. They prob won’t be reusable/SHOULDN’T BE unless you re-plate and heat passivate them as part of the plating, but literally no mfr makes that style of clamp anymore, and they’re outrageously expensive to buy beat up used ones for Concours purposes, should you want to keep the original bits. I keep mine in a ziploc bag in case I ever want to do a batch of replating, used normal modern clamps for new lines.
     
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  25. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    Sep 3, 2002
    6,370
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    Rob C.
    If the car has been sitting for a while and needs a bunch of service items PULL THE MOTOR! It is not a difficult job and will take about a day if its your first time. With the motor out the access to the engine bay and items around the engine is so much easier that you will instantly make back the labor of pulling the engine and putting it back in.

    Having the engine out lets you quickly go through a huge list of service and diagnostic items that would otherwise take an age in the car. It makes replacing fuel hoses a breeze and when you see where the starter and alternator is, you'll want to take them off and have them tested before re-installation. Given the explanation so far you will for sure want to do the following:

    - Every hose (coolant and fuel) replaced
    - Open and inspect carbs for gummed fuel, blocked jets, or debris. Ideally re-build them. Takes about an hour each
    - Replace all belts and tensioners
    - Replace all fluids
    - Replace Oil and fuel filters
    - Get alternator and starter tested
    - Check / set valve clearances
    - Replace cam cover gaskets, & cam seals.
    - Replace spark plugs
    - Check cap, rotor, and wires
    - Check mechanical advance in distributor to make sure it is not seized

    DIY all of this can be done for under $1K (depending on what additional items are found)

    Beyond this with the engine out you can pull the heads and do the following:

    - Replace exhaust valves for stainless ones
    - New head gaskets
    - Check heads for worn guides and replace valve seals

    This step can be done for $2-3K assuming you outsource the head work

    Throw in another $1K for Misc. items and you can do a very comprehensive service with extras that will have you ready to drive for $5K

    At $25K the car is a gift. Lots of people here would wire the cash immediately for such a deal. Buy it as it would take a near disaster for you to be upside-down at that price.
     
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