Testarossa 0.0% CO mystery - KE-Jetronic | FerrariChat

Testarossa 0.0% CO mystery - KE-Jetronic

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Pesch, May 26, 2021.

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  1. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    Hello everyone !
    1st time I'm posting here after some extensive readings about Testarossa KE-Jetronic issues...

    While trying to adjust the CO on a KE-Jetronic Testarossa, I found that left bank never move from 0.0 % while right bank is hard to bring below 1.0 %.
    Left bank exhaust gas are cold while right are hot as it could be expected.

    I tried to bloc the inlet of the secondary air injection filter with no success, thinking that additional air could be the cause for 0.0% CO reading.

    While I'm going to check again the workshop manual to try to find a clue, I though why not asking the question here as maybe some of you already encountered the isse.

    Now, the background of the story :

    I came to help a friend with his Testarossa injection when his mechanic told him after a major service that the distributor should be sent for rebuilt as the car wasn't running great.
    This guy is a very talented mechanic but K and KE-Jet are not his speciality.
    Knowing that I had overhauled the K-Jet of my Porsche 930, this friend asked me to take a look at his car.
    The car is very clean French KE-Jet with catalytics (removed) with around 40.000 km.

    At 1st the car was running rough but running, I found a leaking EHA on one of the distributor.
    1st decision was then to change both EHA for new Bosh units.
    It didn't solve the problem and the car was running rougher and rougher.
    I noticed that injector seals were very dry not holding the injector in place as well as some tired gaskets between upper and lower part of manifol.
    This being known at letting unmetered air going into the system, I changed all those bad looking seals.
    This didn't solve the issue as well...
    I hooked a test light to the temperature sensor and noticed that there was no power to the electronic part of the KE-Jet system...
    I put a jumper instead of the infamous Porsche 928 relay and the car ran great.
    That should have been the 1st thing to check but it seems that the relay gave up after I changed the EHA as the car was running better before...
    I've also been misleading by the choices of Ferrari to lean the fuel when there is an electronic issue making the car unusable compared to Mercedes where the base setting of the system is design to run properly without the electronics.

    So the car is now running great, problem is that previous mechanics tried to adjust the CO screw (enrich) as on a K-Jet to get the car running better.

    Now I want to set the CO at factory settings of 0.8 % but as explained before there's something weird going on the left bank.

    An idea on what can cause the CO reading to be at 0.0 % on one bank while the other is "normal" ?
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,922
    southwest germany and thailand
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    romano schwabel
    first of all before you may ask here for some help would be great if you could introduce yourself a little. also fill out your profile.

    when you try to search a little you will find the answers to your questions without anybody will write here some. but it takes time. so nothing is for free ;)

    only so far: left bank is right exhaust
     
  3. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    You're right, I should have introduced myself better.
    I joined the forum some time ago when I discovered the epic 308 V12 with Testarossa heads conversion thread.
    I also found here some information about DP Motorspor cars as it seems that there are mor owners of DP935 here than on Pelican or Rennlist.
    So I'm originally passionate by old Porsche(s), but the appeal of a Ferarri V12 is now real that I had the chance to sit in one...
    I do my own mechanic since I'm 14 and as my cars upgarded, my skills and knowledge had to follow so I'm always trying to learn more and understand how each component of my cars operates.

    On this particular car, the decat exhaust is not "crossed" so left exhaust for left bank.
    The secondary air injection is the "passive" system based on exhaust pulsations, I tried to block the filter inlet with my hand with no difference.

    I haven't yet encoutered a thread with the same problem hence my question here, I'm still searching !
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,031
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    If the left bank exhaust is cold and it has 0% CO it is not running because it isn't getting fuel.

    No mystery there.

    Air injection cannot do that.
     
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  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,922
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    romano schwabel
    thank you arnaud for your kind infos.
    so as brian has written it never can be a problem of the air injection.

    I would say the left bank is not getting fuel.
    so first check if fuel comes ( fuses box, fuel pump running? ), and if so then if the pressure is ok?
     
  6. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    Thank you !
    The answer was obvious but I was fooled by the seemingly good revving engine.
    Next I'm going to check for the electric side of fuel supply (not forgetting a quick check that I have spark on both sides).

    There might be some electric gizmos that cause sequential failure of components...
    The car was pulling strong few weeks ago wen we went took if for a ride before I receive my 4 gas tester to do the final adjustement.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,031
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall


    Well this is not 100% right. If there was no ignition there could be no CO but the HC would be through the roof. If there is no HC or CO it isn't getting fuel.
     
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  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #8 Steve Magnusson, May 26, 2021
    Last edited: May 26, 2021
    Easiest first check would be to remove each fuel pump relay, and use a jumper wire to connect the female metal terminal 30 to the female metal terminal 87 in the relay socket:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    When the jumper is in place, the corresponding fuel pump should run (even with the key off), and you should be able to hear it running (Note: The labels for the fuel pump relays are a little bit misleading -- "RH" and "LH" correspond to where the fuel pump is mounted, not which bank it serves). If it doesn't run when the jumper is in place, inspect the connections in the white horizontal connectors at the bottom of the fuse-relay panel -- very common for the fuel pump connections to get burned/frazzled:

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  9. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    Thank you Steve, I remember reading few of your thread about those issues, I'm going to check now.
    Something I just remember, the round connector of the relay box below the ECUs were not locking.
    It seems that someone pulled on them before braking the locking tabs.
    That might be the cause of part of the system not running, I'm going to check the wiring diagram.
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Very possible -- certainly remove and reinsert them to rewipe the connections. Do a search on "C12 C13" -- should get you prior threads about those connectors (which are still available from TE Connectivity suppliers IIRC -- they are AMP connectors). It's important to have the locking ring working to prevent microvibration/fretting/sideloading of the contacts.
     
  11. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    Went for a quick troubleshooting session tonight :

    The connector at the fuse pannel start to have some brownish areas and the contacts are loose inside (lost their elasticity).
    AMP 23 pin connector atr the relay bow is loose as well as the locking ring had its tabs broken.
    Overheated connectors and locking ring of the AMP connector will be replaced as a peace of mind.

    On fuel side, both pumps are running and looking at the HC ppm, it's way higher on the "cold" side so ignition have to be checked.

    My 4 gas has a ignition lead clamp for measuring RPM, that shown no ignition on "cold" side

    I tryed to swap the coils as a quick check and no difference so back to the wiring diagram to plan my next troubleshooting session focused on ignition...
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,031
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    Brian Crall
    These cars are getting old enough they are breaking in ways we have not seen before.
     
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  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
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    Is your RPM measuring device clamped on the coil wire or one of the individual spark plug wires of the "cold" side? Certainly have a look inside the distributor cap of the "cold" side for any obvious trouble. (Unlike Digiplex, Microplex has fewer ways to lose a bank of ignition -- and you've eliminated most of them if you've swapped the coils with their power module attached with no change.)
     
  14. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    I thought of this exact test, but the analyser went into calibration loop at that moment... and it was time for rosé ;) I should have insisted for one more test :oops:
    so I'll bring my timing light next time, it should be less quirky than the analyzer...
     
  15. Supernaut

    Supernaut Karting

    Dec 3, 2019
    147
    Annapolis MD
    Full Name:
    John Panek
    There’s the problem right there, rosé drinking is known to cause power loss of 1/2 in testarossas. Switch to a good Chianti Classico and you’ll be all set!


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  16. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    Ran out of Chianti Classico a few month back, yearly trip to Tuscany is coming soon :)
     
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  17. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
    Full Name:
    Arnaud
    Back to business…
    I tried to check for ignition on left bank, nothing came on the timing light before or after the dist.
    Had a quick look on the carbon brush in the dist that looked quite worn, pulled it a bit to extend a bit the spring.
    Tried to start and no-go… right side lost ignition as well.
    Coils and pin 13 of microplex get 12V with ignition on.
    Got to think about how to proceed a good step by step diagnosis.
    This car doesn’t have the diagnostic plug as shown in the workshop manual, production variations I guess…

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    #18 Steve Magnusson, Jun 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
    This link should get you a copy of Diagnosis Sheet N. 1 covering the TR/412 Microplex system:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/b92n145onqihpb5/TR Diagnosis Sheet N 1 US MicroPlex Ignition.pdf?dl=0

    Good Hunting!

    PS I believe only early TR using the Microplex MED120B ECU got the separate chassis mounted "diagnostic connector" for the Jofatron(?). Later TR use the Microplex MED120B/D ECU which has that three pin diagnostic pigtail like in your photo (but don't know what "gizmo" it would be connected to for diagnosis).
     
  19. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
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    Arnaud
    Thanks a lot for the Diagnostic Sheet !

    That may motivates me to complete the 25 pin breakout box I started some time ago...

    It seems tha this car reached the critical age where things fail while you fix some others...
     
  20. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    steve, you know perhaps why at the 512TR the tester is connected in serie and at the 412 it is the end?
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Don't follow your question, nor what you mean by "in series" vs "at the end". (512TR is Motronic; 412 is Microplex)
     
  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    I mean that for the 512 TR the test box is connected between the engine and the motronic box, but at the 412 the test box is only connected to the engine
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    No, the test architecture is very similar. On both the 512TR and the 412, the main test box (tester) is connected (in series) between the engine harness and corresponding ECU allowing the voltages on all of the circuits involved in running the engine to be measured. On the 412 (MED120B/D), there is the extra 3-pin pigtail from the ECU (which connects to some specialized diagnostic device) for measuring/displaying diagnostic signals from the ECU that are not used for engine running. Likewise, on the 512TR (Motronic), there are extra diagnostic signals from the ECU to display the "flashing light" error codes that are not used for engine running. Having these "extra" diagnostic signals available from the ECUs on both the 412 and 512TR (that are not used for engine operation) were early versions of what eventually became the On-Board Diagnostics (OBD) system.
     
  24. Pesch

    Pesch Rookie

    Feb 25, 2016
    15
    South of France
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    Arnaud
    On the drawing for the 412 on the diagnostic sheet, the breakout box is not connected to the Microplex box but I believ it should be connected for complete diagnostic.
     
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  25. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    I had never noticed that error in the 412 figure before -- yes, it should be connected just like as in the TR figure.
     
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