1986 TR ignition cut out | FerrariChat

1986 TR ignition cut out

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Guss23, Jun 8, 2021.

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  1. Guss23

    Guss23 Karting
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    #1 Guss23, Jun 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
    I have my 86 TR just coming out of a belt service. In the service I installed new injectors and replaced the rubber throttle body boots. We have successfully balanced the throttles via vacuum. It starts up perfect weather hot or cold. After it warms up, under load, at about 3,000 it starts to cutting out and surging. It seems like the problem is ignition/spark cutting out. It is generating no CELs. It only does it when its hot. What could it be??
     
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    you mean a 86 testarossa? not a TR?
    with or without cats?
    US or euro model?
     
  3. Guss23

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    It’s a US car with no cats
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    No, CELs present on any testarossa (so no matter what's wrong, nor how badly it's running, you'll never see a CEL). On easy thing you could try is unplugging the single O2 sensor wires forcing it to run open-loop when warm (make sure you clearly label the O2 wires so they don't get swapped) -- if it then doesn't have the symptom = bad sign for either the cam timing or something in the air injection system. Most likely your trouble is (hopefully) elsewhere, but this is a very easy test to do.
     
  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    steve, the car has no cats, so nevertheless it has then O2 sensors?
    the european cars without cats have no O2 sensor
     
  6. Guss23

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    I’ve been hunting archive posts. I’m leaning towards “bad coil packs”.
     
  7. Guss23

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    Symptoms:
    Only does it when it’s hot
    Only does it when it’s under load
    Only does it at or above 2,700 RPM or more, only under load

    Facts:
    idles perfect
    Cold starts fine
    Hot starts fine
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    I think the complete system is running too lean
    may be getting wrong air from somewhere?
     
  9. Guss23

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    If the mixture was too lean or rich, wouldnt that show in the vacuum/idle setting?
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    US version TR (KE-Jet with Lambda) have O2 sensors (see post #3) -- if the cats have been removed, the O2 sensors should still be present.
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Depends what you mean by "idle setting". The mixture screw should be adjusted at warm idle (no air injection) with the O2 sensors unplugged after balancing the vacuum in the two banks (but your symptom seems more serious to me than just a slightly misadjusted at idle mixture screw).
     
  12. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    right, so in the US all had cats?
    in germany they started with cats about 1987 and of course they had then O 2 sensors. but those without cats never had O 2 sensors.
    so as jason write I think the cats had not been removed, the car came without cats?
    so the car has a KE or only a K jetronic? would be good if jason could tell us
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, all US version TR were built with precats and cats.
     
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  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #14 Rifledriver, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
    Steve is very good at this so I typically butt out when he is helping but in my opinion one important piece of information has not been stated. When did this start?
    Did it run fine prior to the service? It started as soon as it was received from the service?

    I have had a few cases of same period cars with fuel starvation with nearly exact symptoms. TR has 2 fuel systems so it would be unusual. If this started when returned from service was any fuel system work done? Were fuel pump connector hoses replaced? Could those be kinked or sucking shut? I found it in a 328 by driving with a fuel pressure gauge attached. I was shocked how little fuel pressure needed to drop on a CIS system to have it act like there was zero pressure. They are very sensitive to consistent input pressure.
     
  15. Guss23

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    No, it started this prior to the belt service.
     
  16. Guss23

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    Why would it work fine for 3-5 miles and when it gets hot, the problem starts? Why would it only be under load and have no symptoms, regardless of RPM without load? I am going to try a replacement coil pack.
     
  17. Guss23

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    What about the tachometric relay?
     
  18. Veedub00

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    pull the throttle position sensor. jump the 1 and 2 with a wire. this eliminates the E part of the KE Jetronic. Then drive like that and if the problem goes away, then your fuel and ignition and tach relay should be working right.
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 Steve Magnusson, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
    What does "hot" mean? What does the coolant temp gauge read when the problem starts? Something like 155-160 deg F (i.e., a little below the first hash mark above 140 deg F) or closer to 195 deg F? Also, does the problem always start at the exact same coolant temp gauge reading?
     
  20. Guss23

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    Hot meaning proper operating temp. or warmed up
     
  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    thank you steve, have not known this
     
  22. Guss23

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    Another note: Prior to the service, it was doing this. I typically would let off of the throttle when it started however once I did accelerate. It bucked violently and then one bank shut down. After some diagnostic work, one of the fuel pumps was not coming on while jumping so I replaced the fuel pump. Both banks did operate but it had the same results.

    What are the most likely culprit?
    1. Coil pack failing
    2. Tachometric relay overheating
    3. Throttle position sensor
    4. Thermistor
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 Steve Magnusson, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
    1. Maybe, but, if you can determine which bank, and then swap just the power modules to see if the problem moves to the other bank, and then swap the coils to see if the problem moves to the other bank, that would help you identify which component is the bad player.
    2. Very unlikely. Can't recall a single report of the tachometric relay failing and then rehealing in an intermittent way. Also, if the tachometric relay fails = both fuel pump relays unenergized = both fuel pumps off = engine dies.
    3. No. When the idle microswitch fails (and does not close at idle) = idle ignition is advanced = idle RPM higher. Otherwise, the idle microswitch is always open. The WOT microswitch only closes at very large throttle openings and just adds extra enrichment.
    4. Maybe, but again I can't recall a failure there being intermittent nor something that heats up and fails, but then is OK again after cooling (it's not a high current gizmo). Not sure how you could monitor this when running, but maybe you could make this resistance measurement at the injection ECU connectors while wiggling the connection to the thermister to see if anything changes:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    When you replaced the fuel pump did you inspect their connections in the y white horizontal connector for burning/frazzling? These connections can have a behavior of working when cold, but then failing after they heat up a bit:
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  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    One more question that has not been asked. When it cuts out over 3000 is that only at full throttle?

    Or will it do same at light throttle?

    I have many times driven a car with a timing light connected and the unit in the car so I can determine if I have an ignition failure or a fuel system failure. It takes a unit with very long cords. You can switch left and right bank as well.
     
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  25. Guss23

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    I inspected the relays and fuses. There was not as much as a discolored contact. Almost no corrosion. I was impressed. I checked every connection, sprayed contact cleaner and applied diode grease.
     

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