NEW MID ENGINED V6 (LITTLE BROTHER)

You need to drop the ingress/egress thing. It’s a non issue in a mclaren. Getting in and out of a mclaren is no different than a ferrari.

 

Ferrari has been using the same chassis since 2010. 12 years and they get a pass... McLaren for 5 years and they get blown up.

Porsche builds 40k 911s per year, it's the Toyota of sports cars and priced accordingly.

I can tell you many of us are starting to drift away, even in the Challenge series because of some of the egregious shenanigans.

Regardless of where you stand you cannot deny that Ferrari is the most arrogant company out there. I'll spare you examples of what we are dealing with. With this said some will follow regardless and that's ok, that's their choicr.

 

Mclaren 720- outperforms 488/Pista/F8
Mclaren 765- outperforms all of the above and any Porsche

I’m not sure what you are basing the above statement on.

I own both brands- used to own a 488, now own a Pista. Own a 720, have a 765 on order. There is no comparison with regards to performance. Ferrari cannot keep up in the same class of cars.

I know this is Fchat and praise of the Ferrari brand is to be expected but what many of us enthusiasts who own and drive multiple brands are saying is that ferrari while an exceptional company that makes exceptional cars- can do better by advancing their technology. Yet they remain content to not have the highest performing cars because they can milk their brand for all they can. Witness the fashion show yesterday.

 

Getting back on topic- I think this is a good looking render but from the spy shots, I don’t think it looks anything like this.

 

Pretty sure it’s at least a bit of an issue based on the fact that almost any review of a McLaren talks about ingress/egress.

From having sat in a LaFerrari, I can say that with the scissor doors and high sill it is very much more involved than just opening the door of a 488 and sitting in that. Maybe I’m just lazy like that.

 

With the early cars it was but not an issue with a 720/ 765. I personally didn't have an issue with a 570 as well.

 

I would recommend not listening to “journalists” who don’t know squat. I’m telling you as an owner with close to 7000 miles on the clock- it’s not an issue.

And let’s just assume for a second that it may be more difficult to get in and out of a mclaren- what I can tell you unequivocally is that the performance benefits far outweigh the perceived issues with Ingres and egress.

 

With regards to the second part of your post would you have preferred that Ferrari went with an aluminum chassis for the La Ferrari to make it easier to get in and out? Serious question.

 

Any idea when little brother is announced this month? My SF dealer should be this month and I’m told peeble beach it will be here but for June no dates given-only 16 days left


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It was stated by members in the know- June 24. Can’t wait.

 

While the high door sills are not necessarily exclusive to a CF chassis, the fact that this was a low production halo car that needed to have all the bells and whistles and performance numbers to justify its price—and considering it was probably expected to be used only occasionally to retain its value, LOL—I believe they did the right thing with the doors and CF chassis.

For sure the chassis could have been done differently but having the high sills not only benefited the structural stiffness of the car it also increased the amount of exposed CF that is somehow cherished by some buyers.

What Ferrari did right with the LaF is use a proper full CF chassis (front to back and roof) with honeycomb cores to maximize the benefits of a molded CF chassis and so in part justifying the cost delta relative to other cars. This is compared to McLaren who use the CF in a manner that Gordon Murray refers to as designing with black metal, i.e., without the use of a honeycomb or other core.

 

Not trying to start an argument here (I honestly don't, even because I haven't watched/read all the possible comparison tests between these cars).. but, at Anglesey, the 488 GTB matched the 675LT (tested by EVO magazine) and the Pista was faster than the 720S around the same track, as tested by Oliver J Webb.

 

Very good post. I agree that a honeycomb carbon structure is superior to one that is one of “black metal” which is superior to aluminum structure.

I think our difference Of opinion here is that you want only the best carbon and what I’m saying is any carbon is better than a steel structure based on my personal experience of driving the cars. Good discussion cheers.

 

First- You need to compare the proper generation of cars. 720 came out in 2018. Pista is a 2020 model..

The proper comparison would be a 765 to a Pista.

Second I currently own a 720 and a Pista and I can tell you that my butt dyno tells me at the Pista isn’t even close to the 720 in performance.

Please don’t misunderstand- I love my Pista and it will stay in the garage for the foreseeable future. It’s one of my favorite cars ever. However - there are tons of other benefits that the Pista has over the McLaren. Performance is not one of them.

 

Agreed that the McLaren chassis is not the real deal. I am looking towards Alfa/Maserati who manage to use proper tub. I think the entry aspect, that it might be marginally more difficult to enter the car should be acceptable in a supercar. It adds to the experience. IMO such a car should be an occasion to drive, but probably I'm in the minority.

 

It simply seems to me this is acceleration vs handling. On a drag strip the Maca will walk. On a track Ferrari’s drivability and handling shine and claw the Maca’s back.

 

Between a 720 and a Pista, yes, I think you are spot on. Between a 765 and Pista- 765 will likely win but Ill let others who own a 765 comment on that.

 

Of course its the real thing but its also not a $3M hypercar where they can take it to the next level. The carbon tub is super stiff and light weight. It becomes even more evident on a track and for convertibles. Drive a 488 convertible and you get the shake not so in a 720.

 

A CF structure would notionally be expected to provide a stiffer structure, the performance (including its efficiency relative to weight) of a CF composite is dependent on a lot of factors though so it’s not straightforward. The one advantage a molded CF structure does have is that, being molded, it may be shaped to offer, for example, smoother transitions in sections to the advantage of weight savings.

Similarly, scissor doors, beyond the wow factor could offer an advantage in how the air is managed behind the front wheels even though for a street car this is practically insignificant. On the other hand, the amount of stiffening required around the door hinge (on a single hinge design) and the gas strut arrangement add weight and complexity relative to normal doors.

 

The Pista is based on a 2009 458, that's not the point. The point is that the McLaren, despite the carbon chassis, is not "the best possible car" either, but the car they could make some money with, and still some cars made of metal are comparable.

Yet, I'm not disageeing in the fact that Ferrari should be making the switch to carbon fiber now, if not in the little brother at least in 450,000€ SF90, but "real" carbon fiber, not like the one McLaren is using. The Maserati MC20 and others show that it can be done in relatively high volume production cars. But either way a new car is not going to be useless just because it's not made of carbon fiber, as the Pista is showing there.

 

Who said the Mclaren was the "best possible car". Ive never made that claim. All Ive said is that a car with a carbon substructure gives the driver vastly more connectivity to the road than a car with an aluminum chasis and that Ferrari needs to up their game. The fact that you posted that the Pista is based on a 2009 model just proves my point further that Ferrari is not interested in making improvements in performance as they are in maximizing profits. And who can blame them when the Ferrari fan club continues to defend the indefensible.

This is a simple discussion that you guys are trying to twist.

I say a carbon tub is better than an aluminum substructure. Your retort is - "But its not real carbon. Maserati has real carbon". Well- great- all the more reason that Ferrari has even less excuses to not use a carbon tub cause the MC20 is roughly half the cost of the SF90 if not less.

I say a carbon tub provides better performance and handling and the claim is made that the carbon tub makes ingress and egress more difficult.

This is getting old to argue with with fan club so ill respectfully admit that Ferrari makes the best cars and that carbon unless made by the Ferrari magic elves serves no purpose.

 

Yeah--- lets forget investing in carbon technology to make our cars better. I mean, Ive never heard anyone complain about the flex in a 458/488 spider. Instead, lets do a fashion show and sell $1900 bomber jackets to morons who cant afford a Ferrari but want to let the world know what the greatest car manufacturer is.

https://store.ferrari.com/en-us/capsule/new-in/men/?department=Genesis_Men&departmentId=3074457345616732789&itemsToLoadOnNextPage=2&lazyLoadStart=14&linkdepartment=Genesis_Men&linkdepartmentId=3074457345616732789&page=2&partialLoadedItems=14&productsPerPage=14&rsiUsed=false&suggestion=false&totalItems=16&totalPages=2&tp=216378&utm_campaign=NLGENESIS&utm_content=cta1&utm_medium=email&utm_source=marketing&utm_term=us&ytosQuery=true

 

Some people NEVER give up on this. Mclaren and Ferrari both put out a great product.

 

I struggle to see how Mclarens tubs aren’t “real carbon”. I can actually feel the difference in torsional rigidity versus driving Ferraris. It’s not simply a novelty.

 

McLaren outperform Ferrari but it's not so clear it's thanks to the carbon tub - it's common knowledge they actually throw much more power than claimed in their cars. The MP4/12C was a major disappointment compared to the 458 in spite of the fancy technology, it's only with the 720 that McLaren finally got it right with the chassis. Now my feeling is that they are on par with the chassis and use the additional power to outperform - so again, it's not clear the carbon tub (while superior in theory) provides a real advantage.
Btw same could be said between aluminium and steel, Porsche may be able to have results as good with their steel 911 as an aluminium Ferrari because they have better engineering, in spite of aluminium being more advanced than steel.