You can PM if you’d like but for many reasons, renting is much cheaper than owning. You won’t fly privately enough to offset the fixed costs like hangar, inspections, insurance, airworthiness directives, required annual maintenance, etc. Now add in lost investment potential on your acquisition price and the annualized expenses. Also, maintenance will have long delays for you. Call A&P shops in the area and say you have a C150 and would like an annual. Ask about cost and triple it (they always find things to fix), then ask about timeline to get it in. Secondly, call a local avionics shop and say you need a new Bendix King 155 (50 year old radio, common in C150) and ask how long to get it installed, price and timeline to buy a refurbished (not used) one. Ask about cost to upgrade to a modern radio and the form 337 to do so. The smallest maintenance issue will be expensive and caused delays. Worst thing for a plane is for it to sit. If it’s not flying ~20 hrs/mo, I call that “sitting.” Renting is much less headaches and commercial ops skip wait times for repairs and often own their own shops. Renting is also cheaper believe it or not. However, if you want pride of ownership… then go for it. But don’t think because it’s purchase price is just $17k that it’s cheap….. If you rented a C150 for $90-120/hr wet for 10 hours a month (more than you’ll probably fly) that’s $12,600/yr plus $400/year renters insurance, so $13k/yr. Owning fixed costs: hangar (at a low cost somewhat rural airport) $4800/yr (rent and insurance). Plane Insurance $3k/yr. Annual inspection NO LESS than $2500/yr. ELT/Avionics inspections $800. = $11.1k fixed x 1.08 (lost investment potential 8%/yr) = $12k (not including misc mx issues like tires, brakes, prop, damages/repairs, etc). Then, every hour you fly you’ll have roughly $45/hr in direct costs (fuel, oil, engine overhaul reserve) so at 120 hrs/yr (lots of flying for private use) that’s $5400/yr. Now we are at $18k/yr for 120 hours/year. Now double that just incase… No one I’ve met operates a plane cheaper than planned. Plus with renting, you’re not stuck with one plane, so you have access to a whole fleet so you can pick and choose the best plane for the mission. When renting, you only pay when you fly versus owning…. Well…. Read the above again. FYI, my Pipers tend to run about $10/hr cheaper than Cessna’s. They fly better too and take crosswinds better. However, the high wing is nice for sight seeing and a C150 is more fun to fly than a Cherokee 140 (it’s low cost counterpart). Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
I'm sure you know the economics of 150s and 172s better than I do, but I do see my local flight schools rebuilding their 150s and 172s all the time, usually after landing accidents. They had a 152 that flipped, and then sat in their tiedowns for about two years, but it seems to be almost ready to go again. They typically require renter's insurance, not sure if that makes a difference or not.
Sounds like that operation is a bit less professional than mine. I have at least 50,000 flight hours of rental and flight training under my belt. 4,000 flight hours of dual given personally. I have not had anyone under my watch (renters, instructors, solo students, etc) bang up a plane. I’ve only had non-movement claims with no one involved, and a couple hanger rash incidences due to line service personnel. With that said, if you’re seeing accidents/damaged planes “all the time”/“usually after landing incidences” then that is an incredibly serious issue and should be addressed by your local FSDO. This should not occur. You should report that operation. There are many shady Operations that jerry rig stuff back together and use non-certificated parts. Hell, I recently signed on a leaseback aircraft that had drywall screws holding on the engine cowling and fuel tanks with other auto parts…. This was repaired by a licensed A&P/IA from a commercial flight school/rental operation (not mine!). I got the plane up to spec immediately of course. All the costs and headaches I mentioned are to do it legally and right. One can always half ass it and do it illegal. If it’s an operation that’s “all the time, usually after landing incidences” damaging planes then I’d assume they’re shady. The used plane market is nuts right now, so inflated, so overpriced. For that reason, people may be getting a bit more aggressive in fixing planes. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
They are a very large flight training operation, although historically most of their students are Chinese. They probably have 30-40 150/152s and 10 or so Seminoles. And a huge number of R-22s. They have multiple locations, as well, so I only generally see the ones at my home field.
That’s a common issue with Chinese schools. The Chinese govt usually pays for the training too. The Chinese govt/Chinese “businesses” often own the schools too. They’re super shady. I’ve hired an A&P/IA from a Chinese school before and the stories are alarming. Anyways, my training operation is larger so again, sounds like a bad school if they’re having accidents. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
I have been rebuilding airplanes for over 30 years. It all started when an Aero Commander 500U we had owned for only 24 hours and the line boy pulled nose gear so hard it broke the strut bracket and the nose dropped to the ground. The insurance paid what we had just paid for the aircraft. We used that money to upgrade the nose to a later shrike nose, upgrade the avionics and re-wire most of it. Next was a full restoration of a T-34. Followed by an Aerostar and 2 Arrows that had been bellied in, and 2 more partial T-34's. Also completed a PT-22 that was ground looped in 1957, this required a full re-skin of the fuselage. Just finishing a 1931 Fleet 9 that hopefully will make Oshkosh. Also working on new paint, interior, avionics and engine for a Cessna 150, Complete restoration of an L-2M. Covering a replica Sopwith Camel and starting on a P-40 this week. We also upgraded the gun bays, hell hole, (adding correct low pressure oxygen), full firewall forward restoration, and cockpit of the Mustang. I did make money on the ones I sold, Aerostar one of the T-34's, and the 2 arrows, and broke even on one T-34. It takes a lot of management time to keep the costs in line and it sure helps if the price goes up while you are doing the repairs. I purchased several insurance aircraft to repair the PT-22 and sold the remaining parts as incomplete projects. More then once we got a bid for something for over 10,000 from 2 different places, while the third was under 2,000. Some prices can be shocking but I try to do my homework and stay away from the possibility of crazy costs when choosing an aircraft to restore or repair. I don't think airplanes are a good subject for youtube mostly because of how long it takes. Sometimes a decade for a full restoration. Gear up repairs can be every bit of 6 months. And the liability is absolutely frightening.
A friend of mine flew a Falcon 900B for several years which had been run off a runway and, amazingly enough, had the entire wing replaced. The guys he flew for bought it from the rebuilder ("it was such a great deal!") and actually I think it was a fine airplane for them. Of course, when they sold it, it was a great deal for the next buyer as well.
Sort of in the same category as a vehicle with a branded title. May run fine, but will always trade at a significant discount to market.
Carfax doesn't cover planes. I bought a 1965 Mooney in 1990. It had a gear-up landing in 1967. Reading the log books you would never see any reference to gear up landing. There was a cryptic reference to some repair, but very obtuse. Very easy to hide things such as this in a logbook entry, and even on a Form 337. I wasn't aware of it until a few yrs after I had purchased when my mechanic recognized a repair during the annual inspection that could be attributed to a gear up. Looking at the logbooks very carefully and parsing every word it was obvious when it occurred. I flew that plane for 25 yrs and there was never any negative attributes that could be associated to that repair. When I sold the plane I disclosed the fact, but in no way did I discount the asking price.
That can happen with Carfax as well. Before buying my Ferrari in 2004, I got the Carfax report and it said nothing about any accidents. But some years later when one of my headlights stopped popping up, the mechanic said that the right front corner had clearly been in an accident, and the headlight problem was due to less than optimal re-wiring of that corner. Since that was repaired, I've had no issues that might have been a result of the accident, but in this case, the "Car Fox" was wrong!
I feel like much of the GA fleet is so old, it's surprising if an airplane doesn't have damage history. My Commander was rashed under previous ownership when an FBO towed it into the wing of a Gulfstream. I don't know how the Gulfstream fared, but my airplane was repaired very nicely, all new wing skins on that side, etc. Still has "damage history" though.
If anyone is wondering, a “Form 337” is a major alteration or repair. It can be needed for swapping out original equipment (like old radio with new) and for damage repairs. It directly involves the FAA, inspections, and sign-offs. They’re often expensive due to the liabilities of the work and the private signatures/endorsements/sign-offs necessary. When there is an accident/incident, everyone’s name in that logbook is subject to a lawsuit. Including in the pilots logbook. When I sign someone off for a flight review (required every 2 years), they’re essentially flying on my endorsement for the next two years, so I’m subject to lawsuits by family members and victims. “Clearly he wasn’t good enough to fly, so why did you sign him off? He was relying on your professional opinion.” Regarding people looking at logbooks: reading logbooks is a skill. It’s always good to have a professional look over an aircrafts logbooks before purchase. If any logbooks are missing, the general rule is that the plane loses 50% value. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
I've never been charged additional or a fixed amount for a 337. Always been rolled into the hourly costs associated with the repair or alteration, and which have never been inflated to 'cover the liability associated with signing a 337'. YMMV Note: that has been true even when I was performing the bulk of the labor (under the guidance of the A&P/IA as permitted by FAR43)
Yes, that’s very true. The inflated cost for 337 work is included in the product cost and labor. Same reason why an IA often charges more than an A&P. It’s why a cheeseball radio may cost $8-15k. I’m involved in both 61 and 141 flight training with several university/college contracts. I’ve never dealt with “drive by annuals” where an unlicensed person does bulk of the work and an IA comes and signs it off. Due to the nature of my business, the people I work with are a lot more focused on liability than 90% of other IAs/A&Ps. Hell, the FAA audits my aircraft and student records at minimum annually. The TSA too. Most GA planes never have the FAA peeping in their logbooks. My IAs don’t work on any planes other than our flight school planes; they don’t want the liability signing off private T-hangar guy’s planes. If they did, they sure as hell would charge a premium! I knew of an IA that hands out signed annual endorsements without even looking at the plane for just $500. There’s always people on both ends of the spectrum. In my world, there’s a large premium on everything. I’m on the far end of the spectrum for high costs due to high liabilities based on my volume of flight and type customers in my commercial operation, not just a private plane that flys 50hrs/yr, my planes fly 150hrs/mo. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
I think you misread/misconstrued what I wrote. I have never been charged extra for a 337, only for the research and time required to create it/file it and possibly coordinate with the FSDO. While "Drive-by Annuals" do exist, I think by and large such a characterization of owner assisted annuals is disrespectful and without any factual basis.
Sounds like form 337 work does cost you extra. Either in increased labor rates, increased product rates, research time, FSDO coordination time, etc. Not sure the point you’re trying to make. The point of this thread is why wrecked planes aren’t fixed as often as cars. Answer is increased costs and liabilities. There are always ways to lower costs, often by increasing risk, and many aircraft owners do. We just had a private plane crash at a nearby airport because he had an autozone fuel pump on his plane, engine failure, then couldn’t handle the crosswind. I’m sure he did an owner assisted annual too. The fact is, owner assisted annuals are more likely to be done at a lower quality than done solely at a professional shop. Sure, not always, but usually and most likely. I’ll still call them “drive by annuals” because the IA that comes by does so in a literal drive by manner (drives to your airport/hanger, looks at your plane, signs it off, drives away). I have never met a professional career IA that does owner assisted annuals. Only people who do it as a side cash gig and shady low-income people with little to lose in a lawsuit. But hey, your guy may be an exception. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
