Rich on Bank 1 | FerrariChat

Rich on Bank 1

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by ColGraves, Jun 25, 2021.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. ColGraves

    ColGraves Karting

    Aug 1, 2017
    100
    Cos Cob, CT
    Full Name:
    C.T. Graves
    Over the last couple of months, bank 1 started to get richer, until it runs too rich to drive (dumps excessive fuel in cat causing Slow Down light). This has been a gradual onset.

    Symptoms:
    Rough idle, rough running
    Sporadic backfire
    O2 sensor 1, bank 1 high voltage at 0.85 V (compared to sensor 1, bank 2, at 0.1 to 0.4V)
    Slow down light
    Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 = -25%
    Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 2 = 0%
    Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 = -18%
    Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 2 = 25%
    ECU 2 Engine coolant temperature is pegged at -40 deg C, where as ECU 1 ($17) seems to read correctly
    ECU 2 air intake temperature reads correct, where as ECU 1 ($17) air intake temperature is pegged at -40 deg C

    So, passenger side is running rich.

    Actions taken so far:
    Removed, cleaned and tested injectors (have also used 5-O replacement injectors to test, no change)
    Swapped out coil packs from right to left
    Removed, rebuilt wires on both sides. Tested resistance on each wire. Reseated wires carefully ensuring click
    Pulled plugs, all look healthy
    Checked fuel pressure on both banks. Healthy 48 psi (3.4 bar)
    Cleaned MAF sensors on both banks
    Recently fixed fuel pumps
    Recent replacement of O2 sensors (problem existed prior, did not change with replacement)

    I am going to grab a friends old timing gun and use the inductive tester to see if any specific ignition wire is not getting juice.

    I believe it is a spark issue. If it is not the plugs, wires or coil, what else could cause this issue? From the coil, it should be a straight run to the ECU, right? Anything I am missing to test here?

    As always, thanks in advance fellow Ferrari gluttons.

    Chris
     
  2. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,677
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Vacuum.leak ..

    It seems it is affecting both banks so maybe manifold to Pentium gaskets


    Maybe a smoke test or using propane method may reveal something

    When you switched maf from one side to the other what happened

    Wait ..i see negative value on bank 1 so my explanation refers to passenger side ..

    The coolant sensor can cause dumping fuel
    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  3. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    13,866
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #3 Qavion, Jun 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
    Bank 2 has no coolant temp sensor, so -40C is normal. There is a temp sender for the gauge.
    Bank 1 has no AIT (air intake temperature) sensor, so -40C is normal. The sensor is on the RH manifold, but it's wired up to the LH ECU.

    Data is shared between banks, of course.

    +1
     
  4. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,677
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Driver side ..bank 2

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  5. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,677
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Test 1

    Tell us how short tirms change from idle to 2500 (steady)

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  6. ColGraves

    ColGraves Karting

    Aug 1, 2017
    100
    Cos Cob, CT
    Full Name:
    C.T. Graves
    First of all, thanks for the suggestions.

    So, I ran a smoke test on both intake manifolds, and nothing seems to leak. Also, if there was a vacuum, wouldn't that create a lean scenario (extra oxygen) versus a rich condition? Regardless, don't see signs of a leak in the intake.

    Ran engine RPM up to 2300 (not a precise foot on my go pedal!) and short term fuel trim bank 1 recorded -24%, which makes sense, as the engine thinks it is rich, so retards the fuel.

    I had a friend who also has a 550 come over and we used a timing gun to see if spark was going through the wires, and it was.

    We unplugged the front O2 sensors one at a time, and an interesting thing was the ODBII recorded 0.45V for each, even though it was an open circuit.

    We disconnected the MAF harness to see if that would effect anything. Hysterically, we failed to recognize that each MAF services the opposite bank (because the intake crosses over the top of the engine and feeds the opposite bank, duh).

    The three of us stared at the F133 and pondered our navels, but to no avail!
     
  7. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,677
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Does the tool say that it has achieved closed loop

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,398
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    I find that inspecting the spark plugs of modern engines like a 550 is ... inconclusive. Since it costs the same amount of labor to remove and inspect versus remove and replace, I suggest you put that factor to bed by replacing the spark plugs on the car. All 12.

    I don't work much on 12 Cylinder engines but I have done a lot of misfiring and bank running rich on one bank of V8s. I can tell you that O2 sensors are ... rarely the problems. They just report the problems.

    A dead or half dead spark plug will cause this. The cylinder does not fire, the O2 in the air is not burnt off so it shows up in the O2 sensor as extra oxygen (the sensor does not read HC, just O2) and it thinks the mixture is lean (too much O2). The computer then adds more fuel to make it less lean. That fuel does not get burnt completely because the cylinder is dead and it ends up in the cat overheating the cat causing the cat to glow red.

    A minor air leak at the O2 sensor attachment also causes the same thing. Tiny little air leaks cannot be found by a smoke test. You have to find it visually. But tiny little air leaks can affect O2 sensor reading.

    A bad knock sensor can also do something like that. Check to see if it is cracked, or impaired in some way.

    Oh yes, there was this one time when the cam timing on one bank is off by 6 degrees which caused the engine to run hot on that side... Fun stuff. Let's hope you don't have that. You should check compression of the 12 cylinders and compare one side to the other side. That tells you something about cam timing. You might as well check compression while the spark plugs are out.

    Finally, your long term fuel trim tells me you have problem on bank 2, as well. Good luck.
     
    ColGraves likes this.
  9. ColGraves

    ColGraves Karting

    Aug 1, 2017
    100
    Cos Cob, CT
    Full Name:
    C.T. Graves
    Yelcab, I replaced the spark plugs less than 1,500 miles ago, in 2018. Would it be probable something would go bad that fast?

    Will take a look for that. Have her on a lift, so that is an easy inspection

    Will look at the knock sensor. Have not played with that yet.

    The onset of these symptoms were gradual, some 4 years since her last timing belt replacement, so it seems to me this is not likely (right?)



    Is this because it is 25% long term?

    Thanks a ton for the suggestions, Yelcab! Will hit those.



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    13,866
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Good point. Sorry, got my negative and positive trims mixed up.

    Mitchell, if an exhaust leak before the O2 sensors adds air, wouldn't the mixture be seen as lean, so the ECU has to add more fuel. Isn't that a positive fuel trim?
     
  11. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,677
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    When I referred to vacuum leak I was address the positive 25 precent .. as Mitchell basis there are two problems ..one bank is lean and the other is rich .. I was addressing the lean condition which shows up as a positive furl trim



    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
    Qavion likes this.
  12. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,398
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    ColGraves likes this.
  13. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,398
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    The fact that it's been four years since the last belt replacement is more likely that the timing has drifted out of spec for whatever number of reasons (stretched belt, loosening tensioner bolt, tensioners) so you should really look into that. Also this very symptom (glowing red converter on one side) was present on a V12 (456) that belongs to a moderator on here a couple years ago and it came to cam timing issue.
     
    ColGraves and flash32 like this.
  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,398
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le

Share This Page