I need brake education

no, you won't get brake fade with either one as long as you have high temp brake fluid and decent brake pads. but be sure to check your pads to make sure you don't use them all up.

the main problem with tracking ceramic brakes is that it will cost you a lot of money to replace them. given its your first time, this won't be a big issue. if you plan on tracking frequently, switching to steel brakes will save you money.

 

You must also bleed the brakes before the track day. I've experienced heavy brake fade in the 488 and in the 458, even with Castrol SRF, not fun. The front rotors go over 700C after 20 mins.

 

Ferrari’s Achilles heel is their brakes on track. Not very good. From the basic rotor design (fins/slots for better cooling) to fluids. If you plan on tracking at the very least replace the fluid. Steel brakes will stop just as well as ceramics and cheaper in the long run. My GT3 RS guy wants me to replace the Porsche OEM ceramics (which are a much better/proper track designed than Ferrari’s) with steel AP Racing brakes on my RS and those pads will last a season in comparison to one weekend on my 812. He used those as both a racer and crew chief in the past.


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CCM brakes will certainly fade after a while, due to overheating (although they take longer than steel brakes to overheat). It also depends on how the track (and/or the driving) is hard on the brakes.
To limit the damages it's better to keep stints under 20/25 mn, ending with cooling laps.
As mentioned good aftermarket steel brakes would brake just as good (if for slightly less time, due to earlier overheating) and would be massively less expensive to replace (they'll need more frequent replacement, but this is more than compensated by the price difference).

 

You cannot overstate this enough. You will want to change your brake fluid before your track event unless it has very recently been changed. Bleeding brakes + fresh fluid will allow you to get the most out of your track day, regardless of steel or CCM brakes.

 

Some food for thought here, on the matter of brakes and economy. There are several options these days which have surpassed traditional technologies, especially street parts, especially street parts being used on the track. This info was shared to me from a US rep for Surface Transforms brakes. Let it be known this gentleman is a very experienced professional race driver, including a victory in Le Mans in the early 90's, so I often trust his perspectives.

"
One of the predominant aftermarket Iron rotor purveyors says this on their own web site:
Circuits and drivers vary enormously in the amount of work they demand from the brakes all of
which means your mileage may vary!
Having said that lets make a simple comparison of brake life/costs with data coming from some
pretty heavy users of some great iron rotors. But First lets start with two well known brands of
iron rotors which cost: 458 Italia rotors $6592 and the 488 GTB $6800 as an example. Second:
The only CCM rotors you should ever consider if you are also tracking are the long fiber type
like the Surface Transforms rotors. They so outlast the short/chopped fiber OE style rotor the OE
rotors simply cannot be considered as an option to track. Ever! These ST Rotors cost $12125 a
set but read on as you will see this is a bargain!
Our friends, who are racing Porsche Cup cars almost weekly, change out their Brembo rotors
every 3 to 4 race weekends. (Brembo happen to be the parent company of several of the iron
rotor companies including their own brand as an example) I do try to use best-case scenarios in
comparisons so let’s look at some projections by using the data from a 4-race weekend life cycle
of the iron rotor (rather than 3). Their data shows an average life of 1450 miles per set of their
iron rotors or 14 hours of running. Contrast this with the typical ST rotor’s life of 4500 miles of
crazy-hard track use before resurfacing and we are talking a whole new ball game now aren’t
we? It isn’t long before the initial purchase price of the ST rotors along with a resurfacing
suddenly disappears making the perceived cost advantage when purchasing iron rotors not what
it seems sooner than later.
And while we are at it, let’s consider pad replacement as well. In this comparison we discussed
replacing your iron rotors several times before your first resurface of the ST rotor, but did we
talk about the cost of the pads that get changed along the way on the iron rotors? As in account
for the two to three sets of pads used on the Cup Car's iron rotors per rotor change? As compared
to no pad change over 4500 mile rotor life of the ST rotor? Did I forget that? Oopsies. Without
delving into every conceivable brake pad option out there, lets look at the pricing of a single set
of pads for both the iron rotors and the CCM ST rotors by doing a quick lookup of pricing.
BTW, the ST rotors do not need to have CCM specific pads although they can use them. The ST
rotor loves to use the most aggressive iron pads available from Pagid. Interesting eh?
Example cost analysis of good iron rotors vs. the ST CCM rotors for the 458 and 488 using
4500 race mile cutoff on rotors with the caveat that at that time the ST rotors are ready for
another 4500 miles whereas the iron rotors are almost used up so would need to be replaced to
continue on at that time. Since the 488 is more expensive in iron, I’ve only used the 458 in our
comparison examples below.
 458 Italia initial rotor/hat purchase $6592 + 2 additional sets of rotor replacements $4000,
+ $150 shipping (shipping is $75 per set on a good day), + 6 brake pad replacements

$6000 (sake of argument @ $1000 per car set so *6 for six sets) + hardware $200 (at
$100 per set of new rotors )and we are at $16942 for the iron rotor choice.
 Compare this to the ST rotors and pads which would be $12125 initial rotor/hat purchase,
two set of pads $2433 (Pagid pads for the 458 cost $1218 a set *2), one ST rotor
resurface at $2400 (shipping and hardware included) and we are at $16958 for the ST
long fiber CCM rotors. Suddenly the ST CCM rotors are looking very good and at this
point you are still ready to go with the CCM ST rotors without need to spend more yet
the iron rotors need another set of rotors and pads and hardware kit (and maybe even
another set of hats.) before you move on.
As I said, your mileage may vary but my single point here is that purchasing the long-life long-
fiber ST CCM rotors make financial sense no matter how you slice it and you still get to
experience the huge advantages of the lightweight Carbon Ceramic rotors as the manufacturer
wanted you to do in the first place!
A win win win by any measure! "

 

Put a contract together with severe penalties if the set doesn't perform EXACTLY as they have stated. 4500 miles of "crazy-hard track use" and the penalty is $100,000.00. The owners of the company must sign a personal guarantee of such monies in the event that an independent assessment of the rotor/pad set by an independent company says the rotor/pads did not meet the agreement. If they do what they say, then they would have no reason not sign the contract. Else, sham artists...

OR,

The longest Le Mans race, which is easy on the brakes, destructive on motors and gearboxes, was around 3300 miles. Have their brakes been tested there in competition? If not, then what other long endurance race, if none, then no serious competitor in the PRO and AM categories even considered them. If they were that good, they would be on those cars, which they may be. Ask them for which teams in the WEC, IMSA, etc. series uses their brakes that you can talk with. BREMBO has a long history of designing racing brakes. I always look for who uses what and ask them what they think of them. Years ago I had a sales person come into my facility and wanted to tell me about how the equipment he sold was going to change my life and save me an enormous amount of money. I forget how much, but it was so obnoxious to me because what he claimed just wasn't possible. So, I told him I was absolutely interested in the machine but only if it would save me the amount of money he stated, guaranteed. He said it would absolutely. I said great. I then told him that it was really brave for him to risk his wife and kids lives on this, since I do not lose money, ever, and that I hold every one accountable for what they say. He said he was going to get firm numbers for me, he left, and I never saw him again. Weird. Just my $0.02.

 

Agree. Be VERY careful who you are getting info from. Obviously the Surface Transformations rep is going to tell you they are the best (they might be I have no idea as I haven’t tried them nor have any interest to). I have had this type of situation MANY times in my almost 15 years of racing where a rep will always tell you their stuff is the best). There is a reason why in my opinion you don’t see everyone using a technology like this in racing, it likely doesn’t live up to the hype. The up front cost to those racing cup cars (like me), Ferrari, etc is a drop in the bucket if we went to carbon ceramic so everyone would be doing it if it made sense. I have heard good things for long strand carbon ceramics from those that run in lower groups in the DEs and mostly street drive their car but if it’s a purpose build race car and being pushed I would stay with steel.


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I know a few of my de friends run Surface Transforms on there GT3RS. They’ve proven to have better brake feel and last longer than the Porsche CCM rotors which are not bad compared to the Ferrari CCM rotors.

What rotor does the Ferrari Challenge cars run? I’ve seen there CCM rotors on the cars ( see photos) but they look,different than the 488 street CCM rotor version.
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Well. Brembo actually does offer a comparable product at twice the price. Their CCM-R. Guess whom produced these rotors on Brembo's behalf at first, before going public and offering their products directly to the retail market...Surface Transforms. Plus, it is good enough to keep a Koenigsegg at bay when asked..they are a company whom engineered everything specifically for their own use, purchased minimal components from other street applications.

 

wow that was a lot of hard reading to get to the last paragraph.

 

Is it ok to use track/race brake fluid for everyday driving?


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Yes, most definitely. Race fluid (I.e. with higher boiling point) just needs more frequent changing to remain optimal. That being said, it doesn’t become inferior but just loses its advantage. For regular tracking you’d be fine to swap the race fluid 1x per year, but to be on safe side do more often as it costs near to nothing in the scheme of things. Quite easy to check water content if you have the equipment, so worth having that done ever so often.

 

I will never ***** about spending $60 on ceramic pads for my Honda DD ever again....

 

Yes… it’s just dot4 fluid … I ran Motul rbf660 for years in my Porsches and used Castrol SRF as well. My 488 has Motul rbf 660 in it now and I will be flushing it for more in a few weeks