Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login I also think the Miura feels more vintage relative to the Boxer and I prefer the Boxer’s lines and design overall. All subjective of course.
the miura design is better in the back end. but from a driving perspective, i understand that the only way a miura is better is if has been completely rehabbed to sort out all of the poor build quality and design.
The Miura stands alone as the first and best looking mid-engine V12 production built for road use. Saw one in dark blue earlier today....stunning. If one has to spend a few bucks to make it safer from engine fires and separate the engine and transmission oil (really the only design flaw), money well worth spending. FWIW, also saw 3 Boxers within 20 feet of each other....very nice
As a Ferrari collector and driver... Ferrari 365BB or 512BB always is at buyer list! I normally use all Ferrari V8 models from Dino 308 GT4 till F360 but 80s model have something else that is difficult to explain. Prices in EU for 512BB carburated models go dawn (perfect cars for 220.000€ or less) but sure for EU new ECO rules and extra taxes to “old cars”... Next year I want to buy one carburated model and just and check differences also with Testarossa 1991 that I have. With the end of “real cars” next years and all will be dishwashers with wheels we need keep our cars because I am sure will be like Picasso or Van Gohg... Sono i sogni a far vivere l'uomo... #Asa 1000 #Dino 308 GT4 #Ferrari 308 GTB Vetroresina #Ferrari 308 GTSi US #Ferrari Mondial3.2 #Ferrari 308 GTB QV #Ferrari 328GTB #Ferrari 348 Spider #Ferrari F355 Spider #Ferrari Testarossa #Abarth Tributo Ferrari #Alfa GiuliaQV
in germany those "old cars" ( older than 30 years ) can get a special license plate with a H at the end, that means historic car and you pay only a little tax for this car then and also you are exempt from city driving bans ( we have here in germany environmental zones where you only may drive in with a green, yellow or red sticker. if you have such an H at last letter in your license plate you not have to care about those zones - until now Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Miura is more pure art, very little concession to passenger or road use besides headlights, a car designed by people not yet 25 and all the better for it. Miura is a 60s car whereas the boxer is from 10 years later. To me the boxer is more muscular and complete, more developed and grown up, a real car you can actualy use. For many a Boxer is not developed and easy enough, hence the Tr was developed and then followed by the 550. It all depends on use and where you draw the line. Cant coment on driving a miura never tried one, had a Ct and it was to me crude comapred to the boxer and not a good crude more kit car, like comparing a 1974 camaro to a 1980 porche. Imagine when the miura landed, it was from outer space. Roads then in many places had few cars, and you could roll a miura at speed, its speed delta to other vehicles was vast and it was completly different to a daytona. Ill bet the average owner age was 30 years younger than a f8 owner today. I think back then reading Miura owners were in their 30s. You know thew story of goldilocks. The muira was too hard, the Tr was too big and soft and the BB is just right. Imo nothing before or since is a pure a form as the miura. The miura was car when lamborghini surpassed ferrari, later the Ct and boxer had different priorities but kept lambo on the map. Now with the hurricane evo I think Lambo is on top of the pile again as with the miura. Acomplshed as the F8 is, it lacks what the hurricane has, both astheticaly and in terms of raw driving pleasure/perception..
I love everything about the Boxer design, especially the purity of the 365 BB. Fioravanti at his prime doing his best work in my opinion. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I love all BB's. My only critique of the 365 is I never liked the look of the 6 small diameter exhaust pipes.
The 6 pipes are cool. The stock 4 can exhuasts on 512's are too muted imo and dont sound great. When i got my car it had headers that went straight back into cats and out the back, No crossovers nothing. It sounded good but got all cracked. I went to stock and it sounded like a vacum cleaner and the motor felt plugged up in the upper revs, Then I got a stainless copy of the ansa sport, imo it sounds great in a tunnel or from behind , but could use more, it fdoes let the engine breathe better. The single can Bel exhuast sounds best imo without also being way too loud. Its good to have something to roll through towns with that on part throttle doesent cause Ire or even just sound farty at low revs. Tubi headers with a Bel is probably the best combo. Maybe its because Im used to the proportions of a 512 but the 365 rear always looks cutoff/truncated. maybe the 365 is just more viceral to drive with its shorter gearing and 7700 redline, but they definitely honed the looks on the later cars. the trick then is to get a later car to run like a 365, newmans cams pistons and shorter gearing.
I definitely think it’s a matter of what you’re used to. I’m very used to the 6 pipe exhaust so it always seems off when it’s four pipe. Same with the rear lines and tail lights. They both look great.
Agreed. I think very often later versions of a car look worse, not so with the 512. On a 512 the wheel arch lips and front airdam dont look tacked on and are a harmonious part of the design which gives it a more full agressive look, ones not better than the other, theyre both good.. On the Ct when they went to the flares it lost something the rear fender cutout for one that the periscopo had, plus that purity of the front end. The 25 aniv is just a total disaster, cant imagine how that happened, talk about a butchered design. On the Ct its either a persocopo or a QV DD, preferably both as they're really different cars. On a BB I think the 512 Bb splits the difference. To make the BBi perform better, pistons cams gear rations and modern rubber keeps the essentials of the car intact but allows it work to its potential with all the factory build improvements to boot. Thyere all great in their way, but the upside in improvements for a BBi is vast.
The Boxer market was hot in 2014 when I sold my car, Boxers would sell in a week for $260k all day. Now they just sit the same cars for years, if you want to sell a Boxer real prices sub $140k if that. Their is massive inflation now, in 2019 you could get a early Murcilago $130K all day long now they are $240k. So in reality Boxers values have kept up with inflation, $85k clean Boxer in 2011 is now selling for $140k a wash with inflation. The time to sell was 2014-2016 when you actually made a profit. Thats the reality, I would just keep a Boxer if I had one now, for the money you get its hard to get a car as good, they are back to being the enthusiest Ferrari.
In 2014 they were 3-400k, so if you sold for less you got played. Wherre are these 140k boxers, even on bat theyre bidding to close on 200k.
LOL from a spectator on the sideline your experience? The average 512BB or BBi didn't sell for $400k or even $300k they were the exception, maybe a 365BB. BAT is a sham with Shill bidders anyone that thinks that site sets a market is naive. They should have jumped at $200k they were not real bids. Your buddy Newmans so called restored 512BB only brought $240k at the peak in 2016, thats a little less than market then.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23945/lot/84/ $235k for the car with $70k in restoration near the peak Jan 2017
I remember at auction those two non running BBis going for the high 300's, recomissioning do the math costs would bring the total to well over over 400k once done. Dealers cold calling me offering 350k. I think the wreck of the florida car that got hit in the rear and burned up went for 175k at the peak. I know you sold your clapped out boxer cheap, that was a good prce for what it was. Nice cars are nice cars, and those with needs, well you have to subtract the 50-100k it costs to turn them into nice cars. A freind bought a 35K Tr at the very bottom of the market, 5 years later he had the nicest Tr for over 200k cost once done. Thats the issue with evrything from a 308Gt4 to a BB, they cost 150k to put really right, therefore its worth paying 250k for a car that is right because otherwise the math can never add up. transcations i ve seen this year, low 200k range for a nice one, and a great runnign but higher mileage 30k car was just under 200k. In europe they seem to fetch more.
Peak was late 14 by 17 the party was long over. 70k does not restore a car, what 70k can do is make a car with nice bones run as it should. As always buy a car that right. 235 is the right price for a good running sub 20k miles boxer without any defered maintanance or major needs..
If you or anyone can find a decent car at that price its a steal. Or better put if anyone is looking for a Bb and could buy a good one at that price they would be estatic. Anyone can make a chart. Peak was late 14 not 17. Ive owned mine for 28 years now, seen all the prices, theres no value bubble illusion for me, If I wanted to sell it would have been long ago. I know the difference between a clappped out car that may run but is all needs and a good car, many buyers do not whether its a chevy lamborghini or a ferrari. If you want a car that runs long enough to pose in thats one price, if you want a car to really drive an use thats another price. In the case of a boxer Tr or a diablo where hardley any have been restored and many are used cars with needs, there are two prices no matter how shiney the paint is, smart buyers know this. If you had followed this thread youd see that logic applied to dino prices where there are no "bargains" left simply because they have all been restored so prices reflect that or there are a very few survivors. I look at BBs for sale here and there, cause if tragedy were to befall my car Im always interested in what i could replace it with, ie a similar condition car. I know such a car is one fo the few and when it shows up its goign to cost me 225-250k and that I would then need to spend another 10-20k to sort it for active runing. If I bought a needs car for 190k with great orig paint and interior i know its going to need at least 50K in mechanical work if not 100k, if it needs paint and inetrior by the time you're done its a 250k bill. Those are just the facts and why its so easy to be upside down on boxer, You really need to get to prces like daytonas before you can buy a decent bones car for maybe 500k and justify putting 150k into them to make them great. Boxers are not at that level. therefore you are way better off buying the right car for 225-250k that then only needs 20k.Thats whey we see boxers sell at that rpce, smart buyers with some experience know this. Or the restore because its a thing of passion. Interetsingly some owners are so passionate about boxers they have paid all the money to restore their decent cars, that puts them financialy upside down but in every other way ahead in terms of enjoyment fro a price well below what you'd pay for something else equivalent. Some get it some do not, fortunately for thsoe who do not there are other choices as you well know. If i had to add up all Ive put into my car over the years, at 250k Im still upside down, on the oter hand my track car has eaten it purchase prce once over in running costs in 5 years. these thibgs are for ejoyment and etertainment, theyre certainly not investements. But its also true that at some point cars corss over and have a huge jump in value. I saw that with Miuras, stratos, 60s astons, 60s maseratis etc all of which sat for decades at one value and then quadruped in value and then doubled again. Why exactly is a debate. mayeb it will happen tot he boxer one day, maybe it wont. Either way its going to cost 10-250k to put one right.
some relevant actual datta for a decent well maintained car, for lesser car start deducting what it cost to get to this condition..And this car quite obviously needs dash work, the mechanicals look nice but hardley pristine. Its just a nice/good car with beliveable miles thats been well kept but not redone in some questionable colors. To me its the type of car that needs 15-25k to be put really right, assuming the paint is good and theres nothing major mechanical. Probably it will need an eo, probbaly after all these yeras the FI will need sorting, and probably some suspension work, once done the woner will be in for 240-250k assuming all good.. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1983-ferrari-bb-512i-2/
