Valve seals equals engine out and top end rebuild? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Valve seals equals engine out and top end rebuild?

Discussion in '308/328' started by tdskip, Aug 27, 2021.

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  1. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Yes, all above is true,

    A low miles engine could well need stem SEALs as well as the periodic valve shim adjustment to spec, and then go back in the car without breaking the heads loose at all.

    Hard to dig back that far on Records but from the year it either dodged the ring problem, or more likely, had it addressed under warranty because of the oil smoke!!

    I think even the material of our seals has changed from OEM, between my 1976 - 77s and the last 328s. Rubber vs. Delrin or something??
     
  2. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Apr 1, 2004
    15,476
    Dumpster Fire #31
    Full Name:
    SMG
    I've seen both issues... Valve guide wear, but I think it's due to seal failure that doesn't get addressed soon enough. Either way, engine out tear down and recondition is an expensive proposition when shop rates are ~$200/hr.

    And at the moment as I've said, there's a part supply issue. I've got a couple engines sitting here since the beginning of the yr, still waiting on parts. What few machine shops are left running are backed up in terms of months not weeks. Across the board, engine parts are difficult to get, spares are not what I'm referring to btw. It's;
    Pistons
    Guides
    Valves
    Rings
    Etc...
    We're looking at expanding our facilities and adding a in-house machine shop. Yeah, it's that bad right now.

    Waiting for the right 308 with compete service records and no issues... Best call to make at the moment.
     
  3. AZDoug

    AZDoug Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2009
    1,606
    Along the Verde , AZ
    Full Name:
    Doug
    My advice: Go buy a new Corvette, its faster, handles better and is more comfortable and will cost about the same as a decent 308 plus motor rebuild. :) Plus the A/C will work.

    Doug
     
  4. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2006
    15,517
    Cerritos, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I keep telling everybody you may have a newer car, more HP, faster, cheaper, more comfortable, better AC, etc etc. but no matter how you look at it, it’s still NOT a Ferrari( 308) :)
     
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  5. 48969

    48969 Karting

    Jun 27, 2020
    105
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    J. Michael Collins
    I just did an engine out service with a top end rebuild, new AC compressor, new hoses, ceramic coated the coolant pipes and headers, Evans Coolant, new exhaust, new Michelin’s, redid the windows with Birdman’s regulators, and an updated fuse panel. The ac blows cold and the coolant temp is constant just past center even with air on in traffics. Just under $30K, so after 22 years, I’m at or under a new Vette.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
    Jdubbya likes this.
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,349
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    The 308 is a beautiful thing to look at. That said..there is nothing performance car about it. ZERO. You buy it because it's a lovely looking car and it carries the name Ferrari. You buy it for no other reason.
     
  7. blu308qv

    blu308qv Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2008
    275
    Florida
    Yeah, all due respect, I’m gonna disagree with that.
     
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  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    This morning, in a group of 4 cars, a 991GTS leading the pack, a Ferrari 456 in tow, a 2003 Ferrari 360F1 in the next position, and my lowly 328 bringing up the rear, tried as I did, I could not keep up with the faster cars along Skyline in the Bay Area. You cannot make up a deficit of 150 hp. But I did arrive at Alice's in style 60 seconds behind the leader.

    So I do agree that you buy a 308/328 because it looks gorgeous.
     
  9. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,629
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    Check the plugs for oil fouling. This sounds like a valve seal issue and really isn't much to worry about if the plugs look good. As they say: Smoke on start up, valve seals. Smoke off throttle, valve seals. Smoke on throttle, rings.
     
    TonyL likes this.
  10. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Kim, the owners manual for 83 308 says to shut engine off and wait 15 minutes to check the oil level. On my car when cold the level is well above the Max line and I have marked that level on the dip stick for reference.
     
    308 milano likes this.
  11. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
    Montana
    Full Name:
    Kim
    OK thanks. It’s been a while and I should get the manual out and familiarize myself once again. Car’s been in the garage for the last eight months with the interior out of it. Guilt ridden every time I walk into the attached garage. :)
     
  12. Miklas

    Miklas Karting

    Dec 10, 2018
    79
    Luxembourg
    If it has carbs and the car smokes on warm startup it could have been the fuel in the carbs flowing into the cylinders due to the heat expansion?
     
  13. tdskip

    tdskip Karting

    Aug 25, 2012
    166
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Good morning gentlemen, thanks for the ongoing discussion.

    This is an FI car, so not a carb related issue but good tip still. Thanks.

    I'd be approaching this for the experience, not the performance numbers. A couple of the older but built 911s I have can be considered quick still but it's about how they feel not 0-60 times etc, same (I think anyway) would apply here. The mechanical feel, sound, feeling the suspension load up, and aesthetics are way more important to me than running at the front.

    Thanks again for all of the considerations and shared experiences.
     
  14. Patrick Dixon

    Patrick Dixon Formula 3

    Mar 27, 2012
    1,083
    UK
    They are 40 years old now so finding a car with no issues and a comprehensive service history is not easy. Buy with your eyes open and expect to spend some money to deal with the issues that emerge.
     
  15. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 3, 2002
    6,370
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    In the last few years I have done 2 complete head re-builds on two different 308's. New stem seals, springs, stainless valves, guides, and skimming. Including head gaskets and taking into account that the heads were sent out for machining and full assembly (including setting the valve clearances) my bill never topped $3K for both heads. Note that this was for the rebuild work and parts. I removed and replaced the engine, and removed and replaced the heads myself. Of course while in there I did a number of other jobs but those are independent of the original question of the cost of rebuilding the heads on a 308.

    Taking my number of $3K and lets add another $3K in labor to remove and replace the engine along with swapping out the heads and you are at around $6K after which you will have fresh heads AND you will have done away with the sodium filled valves that everyone is terrified of breaking.
     
    waymar likes this.
  16. Skippr1999

    Skippr1999 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2009
    4,212
    I had a Alfa that blew smoke at start up, just like my 930 Turbo, 328, and Dino but didn’t consume excessive oil. None of them do.

    I decided to do a top end rebuild to fix the smoke issue. Work was performed….still blew smoke at start up ! If it’s not burning or consuming oil excessively, leave it alone.
     
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  17. tdskip

    tdskip Karting

    Aug 25, 2012
    166
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Tom
    That was not the worst of it, it was actually heavier when it first started, it also puffed similar smoke every time you hit the accelerator.
     
  18. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,629
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    Beverly Hills Car Club? RUN! :(
     
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  19. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 3, 2002
    6,370
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    If Beverly Hills Car Club is selling the car you can be sure that you are paying TOP dollar. Not to say that everything the sell is junk but they absolutely know the max price for everything they sell. If you think you are getting a deal it is because there is something wrong with the car.
     
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  20. tdskip

    tdskip Karting

    Aug 25, 2012
    166
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Tom

    Ha, that was actually more of a restrained response than I expected. Not the place to buy a used Ferrari that is missing documentation.

    As I noted earlier in the thread I’m not seriously looking at this car but I thought since I was there today anyway it would be useful to post some screen captures of the video I took starting the car.
     
  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Apr 1, 2004
    15,476
    Dumpster Fire #31
    Full Name:
    SMG
    Yuuup!
    Run don't walk...

    They want top dollar for junk...
     
  22. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
    Full Name:
    The Meister
    Its no secret that BHCC deals in bottom market projects and un loved mutts. One will get nothing but scorn revealing they are looking at a car there. OTOH if the price is right, you know the car needs XYZ, XYZ is in your budget then what's the big deal.

    Over 20+ years of being here I've heard just as many stories of people paying top $ for a car and a truck load of "paperwork" that made them feel good about their purchase, only to sink a major % of the cars purchase price immediately into fixing XYZ that was supposedly serviced, fixed or documented vs people who bought bargains and were pleasantly surprised.

    My personal philosophy on cars (Ferraris especially included) is buy the ones that you know need work, get the work done by yourself or under your supervision and that way you know things have been done, done right and when done....its a base line.
     
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  23. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
    Montana
    Full Name:
    Kim
    I think the BIG difference is that BHCC is evasive when I asked questions about their vehicles. Called them some years ago inquiring about a 308 they had with the Plenum and valve covers unbolted and just sit in place. Asked them if they could tell me what the issue was with the engine. They said ‘belt service”. I said, you don’t remove the Plenum for a belt service, I have a 308. Their immediate response was “don’t buy the car “and hung up. I would be very careful buying anything from this bunch.
     
    thorn likes this.

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