458 458 vs 458 speciale

I don’t accept the insult. There is no ‘predicament’ here. Your assertion is that because a McLaren spider is better in one metric (stiffness), it automatically invalidates all the rest. That’s plainly incorrect and the fact that Ferrari can sell an ever increasing number of spiders without any discounting further supports that point. You might respond that Ferrari customers aren’t smart enough to not follow the herd but if you were to do that, that would be lazy thinking. To assume all those customers never drove a McLaren, or don’t drive their car hard enough that stiffness makes a difference, or can’t tell the difference, or knowingly buy a car they like less because they want to follow the crowd, doesn’t pass the sense test. Most people become wealthy enough to buy exotic cars by doing some pretty smart things. Much more likely they simply prefer the Ferrari. Not all or McLaren would have no customers. And both choices are legitimate. I’m not trying to denigrate either choice as you seem to be. I just don’t see the need. I loved the McLaren spider we had but I ended up preferring the blend of attributes the Ferraris gave. I would never choose a 675 Spider over a Pista for instance. It’s a brilliant car but I prefer the Pista’s looks, engine, handling, space, sound, power delivery. 675 counters with better steering and better stiffness but that’s not enough for me. I haven’t driven a 765 Spider yet but having covered that space in my garage I wouldn’t be a customer anyway. But I don’t see the need to dismiss it as you do Ferrari. I have no idea why your posts are so defensive about McLaren, you should have more confidence, they’re good and most people here know they’re good even those who don’t choose to buy one.

My brother-in-law just bought a 600LT Spider for a roadtrip we’re about to do with friends to Portugal. What a nice package that is. Similar price to a 458 Spider, which was his other choice. He went for the McLaren and I think he might be well suited to the 600 - it’s a very close thing between the two cars which are similar price in the UK. I think I would still have chosen the 458 for its engine but it’s a much harder decision because the McLaren drives better.

 

had same "deadly impatient" issue, i sold my 2010 458 w 37K miles last feburary and since then i've wanted another, prices have jumped over 30% almost 50% in some cases ..last week i decided i must get a 458, with today's prices i could have went a bit more and got a 488 or maybe even an F12 but i also have no desire for those... and started seriously looking and settled on one yesterday..paid ridiculous price for the rite car..now waiting for it to arrive. If you want it, just get it is my motto lol

IMO the 458 maybe the best sports car made in the past decade period!

 

Very true.

Stiffer is not always better. On a track, a Pista will absolutely mullet an F8 Spider, but on most public roads? Not always. I've chased the Pista with my regular 488 Spider and both of my cars are set up right with good brakes, proper alignment and good tyres. The harshness and stiffness of the Pista makes it much more of a handful on roads that are anything but GP track smooth. Like any GT3, GTE or F1 driver will tell yoù, the car needs to be calm and compliant in relation to the conditions. Not saying race cars are soft, but they are never harsh unless you take kerbs. Like Rosberg once said after a race where his car performed perfectly, "It has to drive like a Rolls Royce". Harshness and stiffness can be fun but it is not always the best thing. Yes there's a limit where it all goes bad and don't work when it gets too soft, but outside of that it can be a benefit. I have yet to find anyone, myself included, who doesn't step out of the Pista after such a chase with white knuckles and sweating, while the one stepping out of the 488 Spider was fine. One car works better on the road than the other, and one is better on the track. That's just the nature of things. And I don't think it's because I can't drive. Am I a pro driver? No, but as an example, I can get a Pista around the Ring on regular Cup2's in 7.19 never the less.
It's the same with the beloved GT3RS. I got it because I thought I got a great 911 for the roads and track. Boy was I wrong. I don't care what anyone says, that car sucks on public roads, and mind you that Germany and Scandinavia have pretty good roads. Way too nervous and jumps all over the place. Sure fun if all you want is the feel that is sort of race car like, but crap for actual performance driving.

Then there's the comfort aspect of it all. A McLaren is a great car and as Shadowfax and I agreed upon, a 765 is more compliant than a Pista - it's a really good balance. However, the CF chassis in conjunction with the advanced McLaren suspension does a few weird things. It kind of numbs things a bit, and even despite the compliance, the chassis somehow amplifies some of the jolts and bumps transmitted through the chassis. When driving a McLaren GT4 for example, the "traditional" suspension creates a better connection between the driver and track. I haven't stepped out of a GT4 and into a 765, but I've done it with a 720S. That was not a great experience. I could not sense or predict anything the 720S was going to do - this was on Silverstone. Stepping out of a car that was so well mechanically connected as the GT4 was, and then into a car with its odd suspension, stiff chassis, and turbo lag just turned me off to the 720S completely. Now, I co think the McLaren 765 does a much better job of not tryjng to be too clever. It actually suits the car that they have firmed it up. But I still get a bit of an odd lack of connection to the road, and the lag from the engine is still an issue for me.

They all have their pros and cons, and it has to do with the driver and usage. For me Ferrari does something quite well, better than most in fact, and that is to build a connected mid engined sports car that just "works" in the real world. Am I totally against McLaren? No. I am tossing the idea of a 765 Spider around and I can get one. I just have to figure out whether or not the drawbacks outweigh the advantages or not - and whether or not I can learn to like the looks which I'm still really struggling with.

What we can take away from all this is, as you say Lucky, we cannot judge a car solely based off of one parameter. The CF tub is just one part of the equation, the rest has to add up too.

Now let's talk 600LT road trip. Tell your friend to bring a cushion and noise cancelling headphones lol. I did a 4000 km stint in the GT3RS and 2500 in the Pista. A 600LT is more like a GT3RS than a Pista when it comes to comfort. No ill intentions, just a bit of banter. But in all seriousness, your friend may want to consider fitting a set of MPS4S for the trip.
Have fun

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Both of you deflect to issues unrelated to my comments. My focus was exclusively targeted on the compromised chassis rigidity inherent to Ferrari spiders. I did not address aesthetics, over all driving dynamics, turbo lag, or any other attributes of the cars. The fact that other car makers have successfully addressed the rigidity issues in their spiders and Ferrari has not, is the sole purpose of my posts. I realize it is difficult for both of you to accept that there are some, such as myself, that has no horse ( pardon the pun) in this race and I am immensely thrilled that there presently exist many super car options available in which I have indulged. I do not have blind devotion to any brand and the advantage of impartiality is that it enables me to partake in the ownership and driving experience of any or all of the variety of options available All of these cars are stellar in their own right but will appeal to different buyers due to individual preferences and priorities. My strategy is to examine individual models as opposed to the brand, to determine which car better suits my predilections and requirements. Others differ in their approach. These cars exist to enhance our enjoyment of life and I could not be more grateful that I am sufficiently priviledged to be able to indulge in this journey.

 

You bring up a good point of how a car feels on a track vs the street. The “feel” of a car is what gives the driver the sense of being connected to the road. This is different for different people. I think what Ferrari and Mclaren do well is give drivers a different sensation.
A particular street car may feel stiff and jolty on street roads, and the driver may feel a sense of being in a “Racecar” and enjoy that, perhaps on weekend stints.
On my track cars, however we wanted compliance. We don’t want to unsettle the car, and therefore “smoother “feedback was the goal. For example, we would adjust compression and rebound on our shocks in order to control bumpsteer on the track.

Regarding the 458 platform, I appreciate the linear power delivery, the direct steering and handling as well as the compliance of the car for spirited driving.
On the other hand, my 16m out of the box on track had horrible understeer, definitely needed proper suspension adjustment for the track. I’m sure factory does this on purpose for safety.

Haven’t appreciated a Mac, but my CGT had a CF tub and was extremely stiff and harsh. I loved it for short canyon runs and such but definitely not comfortable for daily cruising.


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For those who track regularly, they would be best served by having track specfic car and another for street driving. Otherwise, there inevitably will involve a compromise for each. This would be a more efficacious strategy than owing multiple cars that serve a similar purpose.

 

Very much agree. Come to think of it, it's also a bit like going from a metal frame race bike to a CF frame bike. It's not always ideal.

Your findings on the 16M is interesting. That's the same with the Speciale and Pista - and 458, 488 and F8 for that matter.
I think it's a real shame, because so many people don't get to experience the cars properly. I will never understand how a sports car like a Ferrari can be delivered with front camber at -40 minutes. Just nuts.

 

On the discussion of “feel”, I didn’t think the 488 spider felt all that great. Jiggly. Not planted. Not a lot of grunt above 100 mph. Certainly not in the same universe as my Mclaren and not as stable, planter or quick as my TTS.

 

Are you preparing yourself for the onslaught of criticism your post will engender. The attack will
begin shortly. It has been well established that the 488 Spider is not jiggly, feels great and it is fun. And you will be accused of being a Ferrari hater and if you love your ugly McLaren so much why are you on this forum.

 

Actually...why are you on this forum? So you can endlessly blather on about how inherently simple-minded we all are, and...you...stand above the fray..a beacon of hope for the sensible, the “open-minded?” Yeah, right. Your posts are inherently the most condescending I have ever read on this forum. Why don’t you drive your McLaren off into the sunset, and leave all of us alone?
Did I mention inherent?

 

Time moves on. Perceptions change. I can see the 488 feeling great 6 years ago but today we’re spoiled with better.

 

Indeed. It has to do with choosing the right tool for the job. I know you understand this. You yourself have expressed the advantages of having both your 765 and F8. Both great cars, but totally different.
Obviously the 488 loses its edge, and if I didn't think an F8 was better, I would not bother with that.

My point, as well as what Lucky and Plastique said, was simply to say that each car has its pros and cons, and a single parameter cannot define which is better as a whole. If that was the case, why bother with more than one car? My 992 Touring will be able to do things an SF90 or 765 can look for on a road map. Is it better? No, just different.

In my world it makes as little sense comparing a 765 to an F8 or 488, as it does to compare the F8 or 488 and STO.

Bottom line is that, as you say, we are spoilt for choice. As much as we sometimes complain and moan about small things we would like to see changed, reality is that we are enjoying some pretty special machines, and that's just pretty friggin' awesome

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Except now that we all have to pay for Fchat memberships we are broke

 

Well, again, I think it’s for the safety of the inexperienced new driver/owner. Understeer being safe, oversteer leading to some misdirected tail spins and accidents.


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Of course, but I think they are going way above what's needed. It's not like people are climbing trees left and right in 720S's and Porsche GT cars.

It seems to be a trend for the Italians. Ferrari does it, and Lamborghini is even worse. But Porsche and McLaren aren't quite as "safety oriented". Just thinking there might be a slightly better medium.

 

There will be no ‘onslaught’. Jo Sta7’s opinion is perfectly valid and properly expressed. Nobody has any issues with that, though some people may have opposing views which is also ok. What people object to is a constant narrative and tone of ‘a’ is always awesome and ‘b’ is always much worse and you are an idiot if you think otherwise with every opportunity seized to thrust that down our internet connection.

 

I really like this post. I have been driving our immaculate 512M that was acquired this year. It’s so much slower than something like an SF90, which in my opinion is its immediate successor (for me the SF90, despite it being a V8, is the Testarossa replacement - rear engined, clearly a cut above Ferrari’s ‘ordinary’ V8 line, has to deal with some added weight at the rear, looks imposing and competes head-on with Lambo’s big car). The advancement of time is such that the SF90 is able to completely hide its weight issues whereas the 512M is not. But get right up the 512M and it’s an intoxicating experience in a different way, something that none of the cars of the last 10 years can repeat. It’s not objectively better but motoring life is not as nice without it. I can easily understand those who get off the modern train and head towards the back catalogue. It’s one of the reasons I tend to defend against people putting forward their opinions as fact. There just isn’t any such thing and all these cars make for the right choice for different owners, in different situations, at different times. As an aside, any car sporting the world’s only flat 12 is worth everyone trying to have a drive in if they can manage it.

 

You mentioned a video link where this was mentioned?

 

Right on. What’s fun is having some cars capable of top performance like an SF90 or 765LT and others that are more about engagement like your 512M. Driving either enhances the ownership experience of the other. Plus nothing like the rush of driving a slower car for a few days and then getting into the warp speed machine.

 

I just passed a McLaren. I literally could not hear it.