Runing on the right bank only... | FerrariChat

Runing on the right bank only...

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by raemin, Oct 5, 2021.

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  1. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,853
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    My car is still causing us some headaches... Cylinders 1-6 do operate fine, cylinder 7-12 do not want to burn mixture, with some occasional explosion on the exhaust.

    Manifold temperature on the right 220°C, 26°C on the left.

    System pressure is 5.2bar on both sides.

    All the seals of the distributors are new. All injectors do spray the same amount of fuel +/- 4% (We've removed the injectors, collected approx 12x25g of fuel and measured the weight with a precise scale).

    We've set the base mixture as follows: activate the pump, enrich mixture till the injectors do open, the turn 1/8th counter clockwise. This was fine for the right bank.

    We've checked the WUR, one had 3.5 bar hot control pressure (no vacuum), while the other was at 3 . We dismantled both and set the hot pressure to 3, cold (20°C) pressure to 1.7 (which is slightly on the lean side). Both pressures are without vacuum (did not check that there is an additional 0.7bar with vacuum). Pressure raises on both WUR in a 3minutes time-frame.

    As we had an issue with the WUR, once the WUR were fixed and we knew the one on the right was fine, we just swapped the WUR.

    The distributor cap is new (superformance), and when I remove plugs from the left bank I can see some spark. (I have the single 12cyl distributor with Dinoplex). Ignition leads are new. Rotor is stock.

    We've removed the iridium spark plugs and put some regular spark plugs that do not foul so easily. Spark plug wet (so there is mixture, but we knew that due to the bang on the exhaust.).

    WeI put a transparent spark plug on the right bank I could see the nice blue spark, whereas on the left there I can see no spark.

    Any idea ???
     
  2. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,178
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Raemin,

    It would seem to me that you have confirmed that you are receiving some fuel to the one bank given that you mentioned that the spark plugs are wet. Secondly, since you state that the transparent plug reveals no spark, then I would focus my efforts on the ignition system on this bank. If all of the cylinders are not sparking then the issue is higher up in the food chain. I do not know how your ignition system is setup, but if one whole bank has no spark then I would check the distributor pickup sensor, reluctor wheel, ignition coil, etc. as these items are what stimulate the sparking. Based upon what you find with these items will determine where else to look.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  3. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,853
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Today we've progressed as the colombo proudly relies again on its 12 cylinders (pollutes like hell though).

    My mechanic wrongly installed the ignition lead. The lead plug order on the distributor is not the same as the ignition order: the distributor has two arms that are 180° appart!

    I am immensely grateful to @markcF355 for its sketch :
    [​IMG]
    (see : https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/distributor-plug-lead-order-and-rotor-direction-help-needed.642979/#post-147933239)

    So now the car runs. It does not "hot start" however. The accumulators do hold 3kg of pressure even after 1/2hour, so when hot their is not enough vacuum so as to move the distributor disc... We've managed to feed the car through the cold start injector but this is far from satisfactory, on the plus side we did not need to disconnect the safety plug from the distributor.

    As a drastic measure, 2 hours ago we dismantled (again) the WUR and reduced the hot control pressure down to 2.8bar. Slightly better but still need a bit of additional fuel from the cold start injector (not so much hopefully). I would reluctantly further reduce the control pressure, so maybe I will investigate an better thermo time switch.

    Will post some pics on the what did you do to your 400 today...
     
  4. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 22, 2013
    573
    Australia
    That's excellent news that it is running on all 12. :)

    I had a similar problem with hot starting on my car when I first got it. I'm not sure what year yours is but my 1980 has a relay that is like a blinker flasher can that pulses the cold start injectors while cranking when hot. This wasn't pulsing due to dry solder joints on the electrolytic capacitor in the relay.

    Cheers,
    Al
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  5. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,853
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    I know you have this relay as I was puzzled back then by the lack of it in my own car. On the later car the cold start injector runs at 100/100 duty cycle as long as the thermo time switch tells him to do so (12sec under freezing temperatures, much less when hot).

    Is your "flasher" triggered byh the tjermo time switch or by the starter solenoid?
     
  6. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 22, 2013
    573
    Australia
    This is how the start valve delay timer is connected (Courtesy of the Paul Bennett wiring diagram I purchased as I couldn't find it in other documentation)
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    It is about 50% duty cycle and pulses about twice as fast as a normal blinker can and is only active while the starter motor is on.
    Should be an easy mod to add one in if you need it and a normal blinker can would probably do the job.
     
  7. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 22, 2013
    573
    Australia
    raemin likes this.
  8. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,853
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Thanks for the reminder.

    Based on Paul Bennet's diagram, this module is parallel to the thermo-time switch, so it will add a few more bursts of fuels on top of what the thermo time is already providing.

    I've found the following description on the Ford Capri troubleshooter : "There is an extra item fitted to the Capri injection, which you may have heard 'clicking' from time to time. this is the 'impulse module' and is a 4 pin relay mounted under the dash near the fuel pump relay. When the engine is cranked when it is hot, if it does not start after 2 seconds, the impulse module provides an earth to the cold start valve in the form of a pulse, making it spray fuel to aid starting. It pulses for 1 second and then switches off and then pulses at 1 second intervals until starting takes place."

    No doubt this is nice to have given my current issue. Time to modify (again) my relay panel...
     
    Al Campbell likes this.
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,117
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    raemin -- What year is your 400i? The 1979 400i OM shows that special start valves intermittence relay in both the relay diagram and on the schematic. The 1982 400i OM does not seem to show it on the schematic (at least, I can't find it), but, in the Section 5 relay diagram, there is shown an oddball looking very tall relay Z; however, the Bosch part number given in the description for this relay is for one of the smaller "cube" relay (and the function given is not for the cold start valves). If your 400i is 1982, or later, do you have a relay Z present, and is it a tall one (like the figure) or just a small cube one matching the Bosch part number in the description?
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,117
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    (Ran out of edit time), but wanted to add that having the wrong Thermo-Time Switch installed might also cause your warm restart problem (if these warm restart attempts are done with the engine block/coolant temp below 35 deg C). There are several identical-looking different TTS that are wired differently internally and have different temperature switching points. I can't recall if Bosch stamps their part number on the TTS itself, but your TTS should be Ferrari part number 130980 (Bosch part number 0280130220). The reason that I mention this is that the TTS for K-Jet models, fire the cold start injector(s) during starting at much higher coolant temperatures (so still operates at temperatures above dead cold, but still not yet fully warm); whereas, the TTS used on the KE/KE3-Jet models only fires the cold start injector(s) at cold initial start-up (on these models the EHA adds enrichment for restarts at temperatures above dead cold, but still not yet fully warm).

    Anyway, just wanted to mention that you check this point as I noted that on the Maranello Concessionaires website that they are providing an "alternative" to 130980 (implying 130980 is NLA) so, if your TTS has ever been replaced, maybe someone used the wrong one or was supplied a wrong alternative (Don't know if the MC alternative is right or wrong for 130980). Bottom line is your cold start injectors should fire during any restart attempt where the engine block/coolant temp has not yet reached 35 deg C.
     
  11. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,853
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Thanks Steve. My car is from January 1982, but probably manufactured in December (?). There is no socket in my car for the pulsing relay and no harness either. The label is present however but was masked with black paint.

    This being said you are probably right, and I presume the problem is related to the (original) thermo switch: I've added a timer that sends some pulses after cranking for 6 seconds. This has actually flooded the engine... As a last resort, once the car is has received these pulses for 2 seconds, I stop the starter, get back to the engine bay, disconnect the bosch connectors of both cold start injectors and the car starts quite nicely. So time to remove my dirty hack and find a proper thermo-time switch.

    On the plus side, I've spent quite a bit of time fine-tuning the k-jets with colortune sparkplugs. The sound is actually magnificent, much better than the V12 that sits next to it (no kidding).

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    No the bad news. My heads were badly damaged, and the repair did not go so well on the left one: it is leaking coolant in the exhaust (a huge lot of it). My mechanic is even more depressed than I am...

    Based on my last invoice, we know for sure that we can dismantle and rebuild this engine in 93hrs, but I think I should take full week break before discussing with the machinist!
     
  12. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,853
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    As far as the relay is concerned, here is a bad picture of my fuel relays (from 2 years ago...), you can see there are only 4 sockets with no additional 5th socket on the left (see green highlight on the left), but there were 5 relay labels. The 5th one was masked (see upper green highlight).

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    One should probably assume that the pulsing relay and the thermo-time switch are working in pairs. So one should not use the thermo-time switch from a car without pulsing relay when the car actually has such relay (and vice versa). I've replaced so many parts in this engine that maybe I had changed it actually.
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,117
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Thanks for the pic -- that looks like the 1979 OM relay structure and labeling (rather than the 1982 OM relay structure which breaks those relays into two groups). If you had a relay socket there with the three wires = I'd say that just the special relay missing. But with no socket, no wires, and the tape to cover the labeling, it's almost like they adapted the new 400i harness to use the old 400i fuse-relay panel (maybe your production date supports being at the changeover). Of course, that's not your biggest problem to understand now :(

    Not sure if the TTS changed from the 79 version to the 82 version (or what else might have changed injection-wise to eliminate the need for the special cold start injector relay) -- unfortunately, the online 400i SPC are only the 1982 400i SPC.
     

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