AVEngineering/Trev360 - Stay away!!! | Page 4 | FerrariChat

AVEngineering/Trev360 - Stay away!!!

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Mikercool, Oct 11, 2021.

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  1. Caphill

    Caphill Karting

    Nov 9, 2016
    179
    I really think you guys need to take a few deep breaths here. Your relationship went pear shaped. It doesn't have to remain so.
     
  2. Supernaut

    Supernaut Karting

    Dec 3, 2019
    146
    Annapolis MD
    Full Name:
    John Panek
    I wasn't going to say anything but Caphill, you are 100% right, so here goes:

    Sorry you both didn't get what you wanted out of the deal. The technical info is very interesting, e.g. increasing performance with HW and SW, vibration affecting a throttle body pot etc. The human side of this dustup is actually even more interesting. Here is what was said by the principals and commenters and some questions I have:

    "move on" - ok, I'm curious what will you do differently next time?

    "go with your gut" - yes, and how often will your gut make a less than ideal choice, your brain tricking you to "survive" as it evolved to do?

    "relationship can be saved" - In theory. In practice, what would each side have to give up and offer the other to be satisfied and save the relationship? Is there a possibility for more than "saved"? To have a great relationship?

    Were the requests and offers clear? (Both said "I want x by time y and will offer in exchange z by time a" until they converged)

    Who is responsible for the request being fulfilled? (only my opinion: both sides, equally)

    Are both parties acting with 100% integrity? (again my opinion: from what I read neither party is, but not quite how you think in the conventional sense of the word, integrity means several specific things, and it's simple but not easy to restore when lost. This is all "normal" and no one likes it unfortunately. There is a much better way.)

    One thing I have seen a lot of is the #1 cause of upsets is unmet expectations from unclear communications. There are two other main causes but that is the most common. If you two want to "save" the relationship and maybe do even more, create a great partnership for the benefit of the bigger Ferrari community, let me know it is certainly possible via a short facilitated video call.
     
  3. Mikercool

    Mikercool Rookie

    Aug 16, 2018
    31
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    Read the messages I posted. I made this intake manifold because Trev told me to make it like this.

    I made it like this because he told me to a year and a half ago.
     
  4. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    4,241
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    360trev

    --
    I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread but when someone calls out my integrity into question that requires follow-up...

    I passionately and strongly feel I have acted with the upmost of integrity the whole time. I strenuously reject outright the accusation that I have acted in any other way, even offering to still complete the work I have done on this. I find this grossly offensive actually to even suggest this!

    I have tried to behave at all times professionally and bear in mind the final goals, plus the overall benefit back to the community from of all of this (trickle down benefit), that it will eventually end up benefiting more Ferrari owners, even if they aren't interested in extra performance (SAK indeed now supports 360's, F430s, 575's, 599's, 612's, 458's and more models are scheduled). I've even got preliminary factory level diagnostic capabilities waiting in beta program but that's for another day :)

    It is true that at times my response time and communication could have been improved but like I said before there is only "me" working on all of this and only so many hours in the day (a take away from this for me for sure is to lay out a schedule of expectation better) but at the end of the day any "one off" highly complicated project like this where the mega spec is so different to Ferrari stock is "always" going to take significantly longer than most people could ever imagine or realize, there are so many unknown quantities out there waiting to bite your perfectly planned timelines.

    Perhaps I did not set the expectations well enough to match the customers understanding of what he was undertaking and that's definitely on me but that's nothing to do with Integrity. It is also worth trying to appreciate too its one of many concurrent projects I am working on for multiple different on-going projects around the world in multiple different timezones from USA, to Hong Kong, to Australia. We have done well over 100 success upgrades now so in terms of satisfaction we have many satisfied owners, many whom who have become friends out of this. Thankfully most people are happy enough with the gains that can be had with modest upgrades like air flow meters, headers and my multiple years invested in calibration and software upgrades/bug fixes.

    I guess the projects who have I have had the best "engagement" with, (especially if its appreciated and well understood how much effort I'm doing and have done) get more of my attention, they then understand the level of effort I'm putting in - I'm not a lazy guy!!! I agree this was really was one project where I felt let down, I lost "trust" with him, it felt like one big lack of appreciation, especially when I discover from mutual friends that Mike had been talking very badly about us behind the scenes without 1 word of it to us, and especially when he knew I was doing all of this for free). If there is one thing I detest is being stabbed in the back when you are trying your hardest to do a good (free!) deed. Its only human nature I guess...
     
    Bas, mwstewart, Mimmo Blue and 6 others like this.
  5. Kent Adams

    Kent Adams Formula 3
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    Sep 11, 2020
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    Trev, Michael said on another public forum that the credit card he gave you expired before the ECU came back to him. So Michael accepted the ECU knowing his credit card was useless to you. So let's say the work had been fully completed to his satisfaction, you had a credit card number that was useless to you. I'm not saying he didn't intend to pay you, but he acknowledged on another form that you wouldn't be able to charge him.
     
  6. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Before it was understood that this was a "Special Project" there indeed was a standard payment being discussed (I personally never seen any credit card btw) which helps to recoup the R&D costs. Mike fully understood I'm certain of that he was not being charged a dime for all of this heavy work.

    Just to give you some perspective it cost $30k in R&D to perfect our 599 gated work and fully reverse engineer the firmware so we could go further and make the 599 absolutely sing (We still haven't recouped all of that cost yet). We've also had to invest in a lot of tools, specific specialist development tools and equipment which this helps offset the costs incurred.
     
    Bas likes this.
  7. Kent Adams

    Kent Adams Formula 3
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    Going forward, I would charge a fee for doing this type of work before you even get started. There should be progress payments also along the way as you meet certain milestones. When work is done this way, the customer has an investment in cooperating and getting you the information you need to complete the work. His expectations for a totally bespoke software package for a bespoke engine was not realistic.
     
  8. imahorse

    imahorse F1 Rookie
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    You aren't saying that but you are heavily implying that. This whole thread (and I'm guessing that was you on the facebook threads as well) you have been trying to pour fuel on the fire over a situation you aren't involved in even remotely. Why?

    I don't think any of us like seeing this situation happening and want to see it reach a good conclusion. Trying to create excess drama where there doesn't need to be any won't facilitate that.
     
  9. Kent Adams

    Kent Adams Formula 3
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    Correct, I am not saying that, but I'm pointing out what I think should be considered since Trev's integrity was questioned. Should Trev have no defenders? Should others be allowed to question his integrity without the full picture?
     
  10. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
    Honorary Owner

    Mar 21, 2004
    19,804
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    Anyone can post, but Trev360 seems perfectly capable of defending himself and he has the benefit of actually having the facts.
     
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  11. Supernaut

    Supernaut Karting

    Dec 3, 2019
    146
    Annapolis MD
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    John Panek
    I'm sorry you are grossly offended. You're not "wrong" in some way, and I don't accuse you of anything. It's very simple. Based on what I read, if true, you and/or your agent said "I will ship something on x date" and it didn't happen for whatever reason. That's all I'm saying about you nothing more. It's a common experience, but it's not 100% integrity in my book. You may be the Mauro Forghieri of Ferrari tuning with 1M satisfied customers, that's not my point. But why would your good intention and excellent past behavior be an excuse for breaking a promise? No one can be perfect all the time. My point is you're human, things happen, blah blah blah. AND you can be a much more effective at what you do. That's all, nothing more. Keep doing what you do the way you do and you'll continue to be as great as you have been. If you're interested in different/more/better let me know. You sound exactly like a good friend of mine, you already got a couple of things out of this short chat, he saved his marriage and job. Again, no offense intended, I'm only trying to help in my clumsy way.
     
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  12. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,344
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    I cannot believe how 1st world this thread is. :rolleyes: the Ferrari is broken due to decisions made by the owner to modify it, because he felt he could do better then Ferrari did.

    Now his toy is broken and is looking to pass the buck. Perhaps his wife is now stepping on his nuts and he is looking for excuses. When you decide to modify a car any problems you face are self inflicted. You have knowbody to blame but yourself.
     
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  13. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 16, 2012
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    the Ferrari is broken due to decisions made by the owner to modify it, because he was sold the idea he could do better than Ferrari did.

    There are a couple middle ground posts on this thread that I think capture both sides of the story. It surely isn't one-sided IMO. Hope it gets resolved with some degree of satisfaction for both parties.
     
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  14. imahorse

    imahorse F1 Rookie
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    Nov 25, 2017
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    By that logic, we should leave the sticky buttons, precats, and 70 pound mufflers in the car since Ferrari never makes any mistakes. While we're at it, we shouldn't use hill engineering components because the Ferrari ones that break all the time are apparently superior. We also shouldn't change our coolant because Ferrari forgot to put it in the maintenance schedule. A lot of what Trev has dedicated years to doing is trying to right the wrongs Ferrari made on these cars, such as the immobilizer which is completely useless. If you don't want to modify your car, that is fine, but to say an owner deserves this if they modify their car is weak. Ferrari makes great cars, but they are far from infallible.
     
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  15. Spleen

    Spleen Karting

    Mar 2, 2021
    50
    UK, West Berkshire
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    Spleen
    There's nothing quite so unedifying as grown men whining and bickering on the internet. I had an issue with AV once but told him directly, we agreed to part ways amicably and neither of us spat our dummies out online.

    You should try it sometime.
     
  16. Kent Adams

    Kent Adams Formula 3
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    Are you redesigning the sticky buttons? Is Hill Engineering radically changing the design of the parts or are the parts made more robust? Yes you should change your coolant, it says so in the manual I own and even lists it as Shell Glycoshell What Michael did is in no way comparable. Everything you listed is reversible. What Michael did is not.
     
  17. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 8, 2005
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    Good read. Sounds like both parties could have handled this better, but im going to have to lean towards supporting Trev.
     
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  18. Kent Adams

    Kent Adams Formula 3
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    Trev is probably the only person in the entire world that could solve Michael's issues, but it would take a lot of man hours, testing, remapping etc. This was an ambitious project to get the 360 to perform like a 430.
     
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  19. imahorse

    imahorse F1 Rookie
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    It's simply modifying things that could have been done better. I've even made my own parts before because I thought the designs were terrible. If you read said manual, you would see that in the maintenance intervals that changing the coolant isn't listed. Ferrari makes mistakes.
     
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  20. Raj seth

    Raj seth Karting

    Sep 24, 2020
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    Boston
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    Are you 12 years old? Geez.
     
  21. Kent Adams

    Kent Adams Formula 3
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    #96 Kent Adams, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    I know this thread is starting to get long, but just to refresh some of the changes if there are new people to this thread, here they are:

    "His 360 has had a full engine rebuild with custom specification pistons, custom "complete 1 off" spec air intake with welded larger throttle body plates [with unknown air intake volume increase (!)], non 360 standard larger throttle bodies, deleted evaporation system and actuation valves, secondary o2 sensor deletion, exhaust cat ecu deletion and so on, de-cat, different headers, different muffler, you get the message, about as heavily modified as they come. In fact the owner went further and wanted "rain modes", selectable maps in "real-time" replicating the F430 "Manettino" but on a 360 and so forth. I tried to scale this list down to a more reasonable request but still the work was extremely significant."
     
  22. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    772
    San Antonio, TX
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    Hans

    Also remember Kent, Trev is the one who suggested he do these things and encouraged him to do these custom complete one off modifications in the first place.
     
  23. Kent Adams

    Kent Adams Formula 3
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    I hope Michael can get his car sorted out.
     
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  24. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    772
    San Antonio, TX
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    Hans
    That we can easily agree on.
    I also feel no one here on this forum disputes Trev’s outstanding contribution and dedication to this community, to me it’s unparalleled.
     
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  25. john a barnes

    john a barnes Karting
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    Dec 19, 2018
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    I think you both have Problems.
     
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