Please explain or help me understand | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Please explain or help me understand

Discussion in '308/328' started by cfazio348, Oct 15, 2021.

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  1. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,685
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    Mike 996
    " These cars are coming into the 40 year old range. 2k miles over 40 years is 80k miles and would at least in the surface indicate steady operation over its life. I would see that as a positive."

    Unfortunately, the market does not see it that way. A 3x8 with lower mileage is worth more than one with higher mileage. We can argue all we want about how a "regularly driven car" with high mileage is better than a low mileage car that has not been driven but it's a waste of time as far as the price is concerned.
     
    308 milano likes this.
  2. s219

    s219 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2021
    411
    I posted a while back about a 308 QV with 13K miles. Only driven 100 miles in the last 7 years and 1000 miles in the last 20 years. Asking price ($90K) was too high since the car had loads of problems, and it sat for sale for 8-9 months. Looked worse than some 30-40K mile cars of the same period, so this could even have been a broken or disconnected speedo situation. It finally sold within the last week. I am curious to know the final price/outcome. That was a good example of a poor car that was priced high due to the low mileage.
     
  3. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Aug 7, 2012
    3,322
    Tallahassee, FL
    If you're looking for a sub-30K 3x8 miles car with all potential issues already addressed, be prepared to spend months shopping, and a premium price.The price will be relative to the market, and right now the entire car market is on a pricing upslope. I paid twice as much for mine, as a guy who bought one 20 years ago. That doesn't mean my price was crazy - it's just a reflection of the market. And if I were selling mine today, I'd list it at minimum 25% more than I paid for it; it's in far better condition now than when I bought it, and the price would reflect that.

    Also, realize that issues that YOU find in a particular car doesn't mean that the owner is going to discount it 5 figures. Frankly, it doesn't cost $7K to rebuild the suspension. You might certainly pay a shop that amount, but the parts themselves are fairly cheap. I think I paid under $400 or so for new ball joints and bushings. The fact that someone else can't do the work themselves as I did, doesn't mean I'd discount my car $7K.

    Yes, my car still has some issues. Needs a respray at minimum, a bit of metal work, and a couple of gap corrections. But if I got that work done, I'd add ANOTHER 25% minimum to the asking price... because at that point, I'd have a car with 49K miles that is nearly perfect both mechanically and cosmetically. Doesn't mean that I'd have buyers lining up, of course. But many owners are like me - fine, then it will stay in the garage. Barring some financial disaster in life, most owners aren't willing to take a loss on the car just to get rid of it. If I needed $60K tomorrow, I'd call my investment banker - not list my car on BAT.

    Collectible exotics are an entirely different shopping experience. Different inherent values, criteria, and inventory. If you're really serious about becoming an owner, keep up your search, but also reset your expectations and double your patience level.
     
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  4. s219

    s219 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2021
    411
    Here's where we get into a bit of a gray area with how to value repairs in my opinion. Every 308/328 I have looked at except for one has been exclusively maintained by a foreign car shop. None of the owners were DIY except for that one guy, but even he sent out the car for the major services. So they have no concept of doing big projects like suspension rebuilds on the cheap. Could I do it for less? Certainly. I'd even enjoy it. But that sort of mentality cannot extend to the pricing impact in a sale unless it is consistent with everything else.

    For example, the flip side to that is when the seller puts $$ into a car at going rates. One recent 328 I looked at had a beautiful $6K interior restoration, $2K paint correction work, all new tires, and a recent major service that cost $7K. The seller has every right to expect that stuff to add to the value of the car and I agree. I really respect it when an owner has that work done and believe it needs to be factored into value and selling price at the going rate. And as a continuation of that, if a PPI turns up problems, they should also be negotiated at going rates, which is where I got prices like $1700 for front brakes, $2400 for fuel injectors, etc. Again, I could do that stuff for much much less, but if a seller is upping the price based on recent work at going rates, they need to be prepared to lower the price based on needed work at going rates. It just needs to be consistent across the board.

    I think the worst thing a buyer could do is absorb the cost of some needed repairs at a DIY rate in order to justify a car. It doesn't make sense to me unless the car is a good deal even with the problems. But I am not seeing that. I am seeing cars priced like they are perfect that end up coming out of PPI with $15K or more in needed work. That should really be judged on the same pricing scale as the rest of the car.
     
  5. Skippr1999

    Skippr1999 F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2009
    4,212
    You have to ask yourself how much your dreams are worth. In the end, does it really matter whether you overpay by 10k for a car you desire and will have fun with. Just make it up somewhere else in your life. All these cars have “needs” and most on here aren’t getting any younger. So what if the car needs this or that. Just get the best one you can find and fix things over time.
     
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  6. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Nov 26, 2001
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    I think we're seeing in this thread the disconnect between a buyer wanting a perfect car for $X and the owner that knows what owning a Ferrari is really like. On mine, I could see where a buyer might rack up 5 figures in things that are "wrong" with the car: paint chips, some bushing wear, reversing some modifications, missing tools, etc. However, the car is perfectly reliable, handles great, and I'd drive it anywhere. Does the deficiencies reduce value? Sure. But I, as seller, am not going to drop my price by $xx,xxx simply because a potential buyer has issues with the car. Unless I'm facing homelessness (again), I'll happily sit on the car and continue to enjoy it until I get my price. The great thing from my perspective is that the rising values means that I eventually -will- get my price. OR the market will crash, but I still have my car and the enjoyment, and I wait for the next up cycle.
     
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  7. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    One thing a mentor once told me: "sometimes you're not overpaying, you're just buying early."
     
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  8. Vonbarron

    Vonbarron Formula 3
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    Aug 26, 2014
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    Because I’m a great guy, I’d sell the Chronicles of Barron car for 60k as is, I’m having to much fun with the other 308’s. I’m meant to save the unsavable Ferraris
     
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  9. steven_ew

    steven_ew Karting

    Apr 3, 2009
    107
    If you are dealing with a passionate owner who has cherished a car for 20+ years and start listing these “negotiating points” you are just going to alienate them. For many of us we are custodians and owners. When the time comes to move my cars on the attitude of the buyer will be just as important as the price.

     
  10. s219

    s219 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2021
    411
    I forgot to link to a good Hemmings article that has influenced me a lot:

    https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/the-last-analog-ferrari-1986-1989-ferrari-328-gtb-gts

    In particular, this paragraph stuck with me:

     
    Banzairacer likes this.
  11. s219

    s219 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2021
    411
    Agree completely, and I have never done that. I would not have a problem lowballing a dealer who has no attachment to a car, but would never do it to an owner. I just politely decline to make an offer if I feel I can't make a fair and respectful offer (and believe me, it's stressful and difficult for me to come to that conclusion). Every owner I have talked with has been a pleasure to work with, and we parted on very good terms. Every time we have agreed to stay in touch in case something changes.

    I know of another seller (car someone else beat me to) who volunteered to pay for work flagged from a PPI on his dime and not increase the selling price. To me that is the best situation I could ever run into as a buyer.
     
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  12. Banzairacer

    Banzairacer Formula Junior
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    Aug 24, 2017
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    Sanjeev Thohan
    I have seen a comparison where the 308 was smaller than the Gen 1 Toyota MR2.

    308
    Wheelbase : 234 cm or 92.13 inches
    Length : 423 cm or 166.54 inches
    Width : 172 cm or 67.72 inches
    Height : 112 cm or 44.09 inches
     
  13. Banzairacer

    Banzairacer Formula Junior
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    Aug 24, 2017
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    Sanjeev Thohan

    The love of the 3x8 is strong with many, but there are those who just don’t understand these cars. In Southern California, I know of two friends who put 160k miles on their 308’s with daily driving.
    once dialed in and maintained properly - these cars are bulletproof. One of the criticisms is most likely related to inattentive preventative maintenance. I have recently completed a maintenance and reliability upgrade restoration to my PRUGNA 308 - amaaaazing. It is more fun than my AMG GTs was.
     
  14. Banzairacer

    Banzairacer Formula Junior
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    Aug 24, 2017
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    These can be done, as you stated by a PDR artiste. This occurs when the hood is kept open for protracted periods of time or with the advent of people trying to close the hood by forcing it as you would a hydraulic shock support. Clearly it is NOT a hydraulic shock and the pushpin ballbearing must be depressed to release the lock.
    Again - it’s understanding the car that avoids costly mistakes.
     
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  15. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Paul
    My view is a bit simpler. If you are concerned about what you are going to get for a car when you sell it before you've even bought the thing then you are in a different class from me. I put 10,000 miles on my 308 the first year I owned it. It is, after all, an automobile and you're supposed to drive it.
     
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  16. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    I doubt that leaving the hood open would have any effect unless someone pushes on it. It's a common thing because the support LOOKS like a pneumatic strut. If it were a simple rod that you lifted into place the mistake would probably occur far less often than it does.
     
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  17. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    There is a photo in the picture thread of a 308 parked between 2 GIANT Miatas.
     
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  18. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
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    Kim

    Curious where you are getting these repair numbers from? $1700 for brakes? $2400 to replace fuel injectors? I replaced my injectors last year. $28 each and took me two hours including coffee break. AC Compressor on my 308 listed for $2400 on a Ferrari site. Asked few of the guys about this compressor and it can be had new for $300. There are a lot of individuals that will happily part you of funds, so do your homework.
     
  19. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    In all fairness, that brake number is actually low for a non-ABS 328. Rotors are stupid expensive.

    I figure the rest of it was the "I'll pay $150/hr + the Ferrari tax to have someone else do it" cost.
     
  20. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
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    Gottcha.
    I was thinking 308. My bad
     
  21. s219

    s219 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2021
    411
    The prices I got were from the shop that did the PPI, who also did all maintenance work for the current owner for over 15 years. I can't say how reasonable the prices are but that is how we agreed to work out the inspection. I did develop a lot of faith and trust in the shop during the process, they were good folks with a lot of expertise. The PPI was very thorough.

    The brake job was recommended because the front brakes pulsate. Probably warped rotors or pad transfer onto the rotors. And they recommended doing the pads at the same time. I could do that job here for cost of parts and some of my time. Warped rotors is one of the few things that bugs the heck out of me on a car so it would need to get done somehow.

    The shop flagged the injector work because of an intermittent stumble off idle. The price seemed high since I know the injectors are generic Bosch and the procedure isn't usually complicated. Not expensive and less work to replace them than testing and cleaning the old ones (which I might do anyway if they looked OK). However I have done this job and had to fight with some injectors (or carrier inserts) that were stuck, so it doesn't always go smoothly. If 1-2 are stuck no big deal. If all 8 are stuck then I'd rather the shop do the job on the seller's dime.

    If the seller addressed these issues prior to sale it would change the balance more in the buyer's favor for sure. The car was very nice, but at that price point I don't want a to-do list. At a lower price point it would be acceptable. I am shopping across the spectrum (mainly looking for a car with good records and history) so I am open to the whole range. But price has to be inline with the condition and to-do list.
     
  22. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 F1 Rookie
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    Oct 9, 2016
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    GINO RUGGIERO
    Like I said, used car prices , and especially used Ferraris are just plain ridiculous , its that simple. I would wait until the market falls, and the greed gets shoved right up the sellers asses , and prices come down, yes a dream is worth spending a little more money, but not the kind of money your seeing in the adds , and it is true, theres a sucker born every minute. As far as my car is concerned, I will never part with it , so I really dont care what anyone thinks its worth , over the years I did get great deals on parts, and pretty good deals on repairs / maintenance, Now that I can afford it, I just take it to the Ferrari dealership, its clean, but expensive, the service writer does his best to take car of me, since I dont have the money that 99 % of their customers have. They had my fuse board rebuilt, did a 4 wheel alignment, and replaced those two 3 inch diameter 4 inch long cooling hoses behind the front manifold.

    Thank you
     
  23. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Well I don't know. It would seem that any given item is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it and I figure if you've got money then you're entitled to spend it on whatever you want to. I'm a complete, total DIY'er probably to a fault in some ways but I bought an old 308 specifically because I wanted something to tinker with. And I'll admit to having the biased attitude that if you don't know your ass from a spark plug then you probably have no business buying a 40 year old exotic Italian sports car but, like I said, it's your money and money ain't no good unless it's getting passed around so it's okay. I just don't want to hear people bitching about it.
     
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  24. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    May 4, 2001
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    What were some of the issues that were serious red flags to you?
     
  25. s219

    s219 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2021
    411
    I had made up a list but threw it away at some point. I remember some body/paint issues and the interior was rough in spots. Some rust. Sloppy paintwork on engine. Tires were well past age limit. Then a couple mechanical issues (or unknowns that seller never responded about). Mentally I had set a limit of $65K and factoring in auction fee about a max bid of $62K. I would have bid on that but have seen much nicer examples for $75-85K that were better buys.
     
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