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355 Explanation of secondary air and vacuum system

Discussion in '348/355' started by taz355, Nov 3, 2021.

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  1. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Yes and yes
    I changed the FPR on the bank 1 because that was the one which the STFT was high
    I can here a small misfire on bank 1 at idle
    Will have to wait till spring to keep diagnosing though
     
  2. 26street

    26street Formula Junior

    Jan 30, 2021
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    Taz there is a old snap on mt290 fuel injection tester I use to check if for leaky or clogged injectors it’s easy and reliable

    All you to do is put fuel gauge on the rail and key on engine off run the to fuel pump till max pressure is reached let sit till the gauge holds a reading then use the tester to fire the injector take the pressure drop off reading then go to next injector and repeat you will need to run the pump after each test and some times the pressure might be lower at the begin but it’s the flow rate you are looking for
    If all injectors flow 3 pounds and one only flows 1 pound there a clogged and if you have one that drops below the others then it’s a leaky one they all should be with in a half pound of each other
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    This is the tester you can find them for under $50 us on eBay


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  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    That would work IF there is a fuel schraider valve at the rear end of the rail. Not all 355 have that feature.
     
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  4. 26street

    26street Formula Junior

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    Yes you right but I should have stated that a inline fuel pressure kit would help
    I use a OTC kit which has over a dozen adapters and I think that taz has other post saying he has a pressure tester (not sure) either way even if you have to buy tee fitting still a easy way to check system


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  5. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    as Mitchell said most do not have this valve
    I think I may take rails off and add these valves to each
    I can weld them on in my shop or weld fittings on and cap them.
    What would you guys suggest as I do not really like the idea of introducing a leak by welding them on.
    Do they make them or the fittings to add them between the fuel block and the feed line on the rails?
    This would be a better solution for the brotherhood long term for everyone I would think
     
  6. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    I got adaptors, M14 x 1.5 1/8 NPT, for the 348 fuel rails (thread M14 x 1.5, 355 should be same) from here: https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/oil-pressure-gauge-t-piece-m14-x-1-5-tp-m14x15. I had to machine a female flare into the male side of the adaptor (seen on the middle picture) and machine flat the female side for a copper washer.

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    For the service port, I got MOTORCRAFT CM-3461: https://www.ebay.com/itm/384439112286?epid=78940979&hash=item59825b525e:g:riEAAOSwJMNhbrLy.
    The Motorcraft valve has M8 x 1.0 thread so I had to make a small brass adaptor 1/4 NPT male to M8 x 1.0 female.
     
  7. 26street

    26street Formula Junior

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  8. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #33 taz355, Jul 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
    Update
    Put on new capristo cats as the bank 1 cat was loose inside.
    My STFT is low but the LTFT on bank 1 is 18
    The car with the new cat is now throwing a slow down light which confirms overfueling to that bank and If I keep it to the floor the light flashes and cuts fuel and engine has no power but then runs smooth if Throttle is slammed open so it is obvious to me it’s over fuelling I think.
    Thinking the excessive fuel may have damaged that cat prematurely even though I had no codes or lights prior or it simply wore out slowly and because it was wore out the cat would not heat up as much and throw a light
    Mitchell had said earlier it was over fueling due to back fire and I think all this confirms it

    I am thinking it could be a few things
    A stuck injector so will remove and test all
    A vacuum leak on that side of intake system but I smoke tested and all seems good although found a different leak that after fixed had little effect or very little
    A vacuum leak on the secondary air injection system because I did glue the vacuum nipple that was cracked (Q) below, not sure if this would cause a problem but thought it may allow air to be pulled through and into exhaust on bank 1 thusemaking the O2 think that bank is lean and add fuel, I will smoke test but could use ideas where to introduce smoke I am thinking At air pump side to ensure valve is not leaking
    Last thing I could think of is a spark plug wire is sparking to ground and a plug is not firing. Hhaving said that when I pulled all plugs they looked the same And good, no black ones , but the engine does not run bad at slow throttle increases and only on fast increases. I thought that maybe the 3 mile drive after a full throttle run cleans the plugs up a bit so this could be deceiving.
    Maybe MAF but I changed with a new one and engine runs the same so I am thinking I now have a spare MAF
    Thanks for any input fellows

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  9. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Ketel's car had a similar problem like this three times.

    1. The electronic connectors driving the two vacuum switches (S on the diagram) were shorted out with water causing one of the injectors on bank 1 to get stuck open all the time). The fix was to clean up the offending connector.
    2. A bad injector wire (shorted to ground) caused that injector to stay open all the time. The fix was to add a wire from the engine ECU connector to the offending injector at the connector.
    3. A bad knock sensor (cracked in few places) caused the engine to change timing on that side of the engine and then add fuel on the same side to compensate. The fix was to replace the knock sensor.

    Things you can do to add more data to the diagnosis:
    4. swap upstream O2 sensors left to right to see if the problem follows the O2 sensor (or change the sensor)
    5. Is the STFT positive or negative? You said it's low but ...
    6. Hook up a Volt meter, or an oscilloscope (I know you had one) across the two pins of the injectors on bank 1, see if they are seeing the right signals. Or if they are shorted out. You NEED to make a pigtail to bring out the signals while they are still driving the injector. Don't just pull the injector connector out. That does not work.
    7. A small air leak near the upstream O2 sensor can cause this problem. A very small air leak undetectable by the smoke machine but right next to the O2 sensor would do this
    8. Is there any CEL code?

    As for your question on the smoke testing the integrity of the secondary air injection switch. Inject smoke at the other end of the vacuum line that is connected to that nipple on that switch. Unlikely to be the cause of your problem though.
     
  10. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    I did have one bad spark plug (once) that caused this issue. I could not visually tell if it were good or bad but changing it solved the running issue. It was misfiring intermittently and then permanently, that causes unburnt O2 inside the exhaust stream, which causes the O2 sensor to read too much air (a lean condition), and causes the ECU to add fuel to the next cycle to compensate for lean condition, which causes more unburnt fuel inside the cat, which makes it run hot and a SDL.
     
  11. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Sounds terrible :D

    soft or STFT?

    Sounds like what I've just gone through. I had one side hotter than the other. I was looking at injectors, fuel pressure regulators, coil packs, spark plug leads and spark plugs. My plugs looked pretty good, so I don't know how they ended up being partly responsible (other than them being the wrong type for the 5.2).

    Experts: If there was an air leak on the pump side of the secondary air check valves (L), would air get into the exhaust manifold? Is there a negative pressure in the exhaust manifold strong enough to open up the check valves? (or would it depend on what part of the 4 stroke cycle the engine was on). If you didn't have a smoke machine to test the system when it's operating, would soapy water do?
     
  12. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    I changed all plugs last fall on that side and no change so not positive new plugs were good but think they likely were
    But after reading posts all winter another fchatter had a bad-lug wire he noticed when car was idling in a dark garage and saw it arcing so I am thinking this would do same as a bad plug.
    Not sure how else to test a lead but thought pulling plugs would have shown this
     
  13. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    I was guessing the flow of air through the exhaust might cause enough vacuum to pull fresh air through the secondary air system and cause this but was mostly looking for which things I check and in what order the most likely contributor would be
     
  14. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Will replace upstream with a new one
    STFT is still positive but below 3
    I. Tested the injectors with the Galileo and they all make the same sound and seem like they open and close by the auditory clicking. The Galileo did not show an injector problem
    The only time I get a cel is if I floor it and the sdl becomes active
    The cam phase sensor is still giving an intermittent code but for all last summer it was active and the car ran fine for months so I have not been bringing that code up for discussion because it never had any bearing on how the car ran even if I did not clear it.
     
  15. taz355

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    Going to do some work and a trial run
     
  16. yelcab

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    #41 yelcab, Jul 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
    Clicking of injectors alone does not mean they are good, only that they are noisy. Testing them for flow rates will give you better data (or sending them out for cleaning, and they will do a pre vs post test)

    STFT of positive 3 and LTFT of 18 is knocking the limit of adjustment by the ECU. It also means the ECU thinks you do have a lean condition on bank 1 that is always there, not intermittent. (Note i said "it thinks" you have a lean condition, not that you actually have a lean condition). The SDL coming on actually means you have excess fuel condition in the cat converter.

    You should look at the voltage pattern of the right bank O2 sensor compared to the left bank O2 sensor (up stream). See if the patterns have any other clue.

    I have broken down and bought a Air Fuel Ratio meter that looks like a O2 sensor. That definitely tells if the bank is running rich or lean and rules out what the O2 sensor is saying. The only the thing that it needs is an extra O2 sensor bung next to the upstream O2 sensor so that it can be in the exhaust stream before the cat.
     
  17. taz355

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    So just as a check I unplugged 1 injector at a time and the idle got rougher
    Does not mean a lot but the injector is working at idle

    replaced plug wires with the old ones which were working and took the car out and no change
    That bank got as high as 21 on ltft but as I left it idle the STFT finally started showing a slight negative of 1 to 3
    The longer I let it idle the STFT got as high as 7 and it slowly started coming down to aboutthe18 or so before it started showing 0

    I can not find my new upstream o2 sensor so ordered 1 but I won’t have for a couple days so I was going to move it from 1side to the other if I have time today
    If that does not change anything will pull injectors and clean them
     
  18. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    I think the limit is 25 on LTFT because mine no longer changes

    So I switched the upstream o2 and the following occurred
    Ltft are as follows
    Bank 2 now got richer and is up from 8 I think to about 16 and short term stayed slightly positive fluctuating between 0 and 5 the whole drive about 45 minutes
    Bank1 got richer to 25 but now bank 1 actually shows short term as cycling between neg small numbers to positive small numbers and before it was always a positive like bank 2 is now acting. This could also be now that it is rich enough it is cycling positive and negative. It does not stay negative enough to start dropping LTFT on bank 1 though.
    Bank two never shows negative now and it was originally cycling between small negative numbers and positive numbers

    thenew capristo cats are shielded so they would stay hotter but experience tells me this would be good based on my old cats and data.
    I have cat extenders on the down stream so maybe they are not working properly on these cats but I had the problem last fall with the original hyper flows
    So I do not think this is the main problem.

    Mitchell the voltages upstream jump in a bit of a cycle from .06 volts to 0.7 but stay usually between .4 and .65. And mostly 0.6 to 0.65
    The down stream cycle and stay much steadier around 0.06 I am assuming O2B2S1 is upstream and O2B2S2 is down stream.

    just for a test I unplugged the MAF and the car drove exactly the same but showed it was not working where as when it is plugged in it fluctuated between 0.02 and 0.2. It accelerated right to redline smoothly if I pushed the pedal slowly and smoothly.
    If I jumped on it it shuddered bad until you back out of it and then it gets smooth. It did not seem any more sensitive and was acting exactly how it drives with it plugged in.

    I have new down stream 02’s so when the new upstream come in I could change them all but I think they are all working.

    I wish I could clear the LTFT but I twisted the battery cutoff over night and it remembered them.
    When the MAF was unplugged I did get a CEL but the code was not a MAF code but a upstream O2 sensor malfunction. once cleared and MAF plugged back in only code was the camshaft sensor malfunction “pending code” which I can no longer clear but I think that is normal because it is pending.
    Also remember that I had that code all last year and car ran fine for over 1200 miles before starting this problem so I have ruled that out.
    No CEL is on after drive of 45 minutes
     
  19. Qavion

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    Interesting. I thought these systems were supposed to trigger a CEL if the fuel trims reached their limits?

    Loss of MAF data is supposed to put the engine back into open loop mode where the O2 sensors are ignored. I wonder why you got the message. It seems odd that the ECU, by design, would lock out the sensors, then throw a message because it locked them out.

    Yes, that's one of the good/bad features of the 5.2. Thanks for confirming it.

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    Does the code correspond to the bank which is running rich?

    Anyway, good luck with your upstream O2 sensors. Maybe one was damaged during the Capristo installation?
     
  20. yelcab

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    There is a lot of data here so I have to digest them first. What I got is...

    1. You swapped upstream O2 sensors side to side and now both banks are high LTFT positive. The richness followed the O2 sensor to the banks, while bank 1 stays positive but the STFT bounces around zero.
    Interpretation: I would say your O2 sensors upstream need to be replaced. And there still is a rich condition on bank 1 that needs to be found yet. Possibly one of the injectors is leaking.

    2. Down stream O2 sensor is steady around 0.06...
    Interpretation: That is actually not good at all. Troomi's car had that problem and it took a week to find it. If you have spacers on the rear O2 sensors, take the spacers out, inspect around the spacer for a crack. That little crack would cause the O2 sensor to slowly drift to ultra lean condition at 0V. For unknown reason, that causes the ECU to do weird things. You won't find that crack with a smoke test.

    Take a picture of the spacers.
     
  21. taz355

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    no the code just says catalytic temp exceeded
    Or something like that
     
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  22. taz355

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    Yes have spacers so will take them out
    Before I put them in 15 years ago it’s I would get a cel about 1per month
    Maybe I read that wrong and it was 0.6Would that be normal/?
     
  23. taz355

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    All new sensors and same problem
    I still get a pending code for the camshaft position sensor.

    I think the damage I did on the trigger wheel is causing the problem and the camshaft position sensor all though is just a pending code because it no longer gives a permanent code I can not clear it

    the car runs the same whether the sensor is plugged in or not so now I am thinking that is the whole problem.
    The brass trigger has tooth marks in it from a vise grip and although I got most of them out I think it’s likely very sensitive

    going to fix it first only problem is I need to get it off and not likely an easy chore
    Also the sensor looks different so my other on off my old head likely won’t fit.

    we’ll see
     
  24. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Another no solution update
    Sheesh

    replaced the camshaft trigger and same issues.
    Lot of suggestions so working through them
    Unplugged the knock sensor bank 1 for a small drive once engine up to temp and the car ran better for a few accelerations but still getting too much fuel
    Then got way worse and sdl went from flashing to cutting off that bank within a few seconds which it never did when plugged in.
    Drove slow for a minute or so and then bank cut back in so tried another acceleration and again better but not normal.
    Still way too much fuel this time the bank shut down for likely 5 minutes before I got home and shut engine off.

    need to remove the spacers I think as Mitchell pointed out and will clean up connectors at the solenoids down by the vac tank.
    Will keep you posted
     
  25. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Grant,

    It's hard to follow and remember what was done. Can you give a quick summary of what you have tried and what results are?
     

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