What if Toyota’s Hydrogen engine succeeds?

Honda already has hydrogen figured out. Their next gen will be as light, compact and no more expensive to manufacture than an ICE. It is the production of hydrogen itself that remains the hard part of the equation.

 

That information is new to me. Didn’t know Honda had advanced that far. I know Yamaha made a v8 that runs on hydrogen and makes around 500hp.

 

The vapors of gasoline, the mixture of -anes, is flammable when mixed with oxygen and a source of heat beyond its ignition point. The liquid of -anes is not explosive since oxygen does not interact with that molecule of -ane since it is surrounded by other -anes and not by oxygen. That is the simple explanation of explosive force and what actually ignites (the outside of a massive droplet made up of millions of -ane molecules, not the whole droplet) and its power. You are a car guy, right? Why did Ferrari put a turbo on their engine? Why do we have blowers? Why do we use fuel injectors instead of carburetors? They all have one purpose, break the liquid fuel into the smallest droplet to get more oxygen around the droplets (made up of millions of -anes molecules), thus creating a more powerful explosion, in other words, power.

Hydrogen is already a gas and needs no external means of force to get oxygen around it, therefore, if a hydrogen tank, under significant pressure to keep the hydrogen in a liquid state springs a leak due to any reason, each atom of hydrogen can interact with all the oxygen in its area and create an explosion MUCH greater than the liquid -anes fuel. This is simple physics and needs no other explanation of situations. This is my evidence, physics.

I am not being mean here, I just want you to see why it is a greater danger having compressed Hydrogen generate a leak versus -anes (gasoline).

 

Why keep repeating the same claim is a loss to me; I fully understand your position.

My question is not what your claim is; please provide evidence that hydrogen tanks in automobiles are more dangerous than gasoline tanks.

That's all.

If you can't do that, then I dare say one might engage in some self-reflection.

 

relevant :
https://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/explode.html

point is if Hydrogen leaks, the only result is death,mayhem, etc...
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/513855main_ASK_41s_explosive.pdf

how about entire homes destroyed...
https://www.wbtv.com/2020/04/07/homes-damaged-explosion-fuel-facility-catawba-county/

how about other lives destroyed:
https://cen.acs.org/safety/industrial-safety/Hydrogen-blast-led-deaths-US/97/web/2019/12

How about current OSHA warnings:
https://www.wbtv.com/2020/04/07/homes-damaged-explosion-fuel-facility-catawba-county/

Other;
https://www.eenews.net/articles/hydrogen-could-fuel-u-s-energy-transition-but-is-it-safe/

Research report from Aug 2019:
https://h2tools.org/sites/default/files/2019-08/Risk Assessment of Hydrogen Explosion for Private Car with Hydrogen-Driven Engine.pdf

includes:
For example, in case of Germany there are about 45 10^6 passenger cars in circulation, the risk of hydrogen explosion of the car (EXP3) with lethal casualties
would represent (in the worst scenario) five events every year. Such a frequency cannot be neglected.

point is, Hydrogen is very expensive to produce, transport, purchase and, one tiny mistake and whole thing explodes, not a good outcome, and definitely not comparable to gasoline or even electric batteries though neither are pleasant or good for anything, quite different than what Hydrogen does when everything is not perfect...shift your thinking to 10 years out or more, an improperly maintained Hydrogen vehicle goes boom, etc

and, the first hydrogen fuel cell car that explodes will likely destroy its market impact as no one wants that risk (being "exploded" by your car/truck)

for example:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-hydrogen-southkorea-insight/hydrogen-hurdles-a-deadly-blast-hampers-south-koreas-big-fuel-cell-car-bet-idUSKBN1W936A

and, it does not take a Hydrogen car blowing up to stop use of Hydrogen to power cars, just follow the exploding production and stations:

https://h2tools.org/sites/default/files/2021-06/AP_Santa_Clara_Incident_Review_Report_Rev1.pdf

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130717_another-fuel-cell-outage-hampers-bay-area-fuel-cell-drivers

https://andretti1.com/never-run-out-of-hydrogen-fuel/

https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/11/norway-explosion-at-fuel-cell-filling-station/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nel-blast/norway-fines-nel-units-3-million-over-2019-blast-at-hydrogen-fuel-station-idUSKBN2AG2N4

https://www.ediweekly.com/game-over-for-hydrogen-fuel-cells-not-really-but-an-explosion-in-norway-halts-sales-of-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-locally/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319921033103#!

 

I feel bad for you because you spent a lot of time gathering all of this. But not a single link shows a hydrogen car is more dangerous than a gasoline one.

You've posted links to industrial hydrogen accidents and hydrogen station explosions.

A nonsequitur.

Are there also no accidents at gas refineries or gas stations?

Again, pretty please, with a cherry on top. Can you show me an either:

1) Evidence that a hydrogen car is more dangerous than a gasoline one.
2) A single person that died from a hydrogen car blowing up.
​

Either will work.

 

Back on topic, the only way to meet cost targets that allow a robust economy in the isolation and storage of Hydrogen is to split water through electrical hydrolysis. PSA filtering is way too expensive. Therefore, to not use fossil fuels to create the hydrogen dream is to use Nuclear Reactors to create the electricity to perform hydrolysis, capture the oxygen from one probe and hydrogen from the other. But, we also have one other problem, and that is that the water must be pure or you wind up with host of other issues due to contaminates.

So here is the path, nuclear reactor heats up, use heat to distill sea water for hydrolysis, use the nuclear generated electricity to perform the hydrolysis and run the compressors to store the hydrogen and let the oxygen get released. This is the cycle.

BUT, as we have to desalinate the salt water first, what do we do with the concentrated salt? Not only that, but does anyone here understand what happens to the ocean currents due to salinity changes? Salinity changes is how we triggered the ice age cycle. It affects the ocean flow since the changes to the electrical properties of the sea water significantly affect the strength and direction of ocean currents. This a complex problem, and doesn't have simple solutions.

 

I guess I have to speak slowly. NOT. ENOUGH. VEHICLES. TO. MAKE. A. DATA. POINT.

Therefore, we have to go off of pure INTELLIGENCE and PHYSICS. Compressed Hydrogen is more dangerous than Gasoline. I know it may be hard for you to understand apparently, so I will have to leave it at that.

 

You left out the most dramatic example- the Hindenburg on May 6, 1937.
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Your P&R posts and those quoting you have been deleted. Please take your comments like the above to P&R, not here.

 

You know for fun, I decided to just look at one of the links that I felt might be closest to your thesis. Nevermind it was 13 years old, whatever.

Here's the conclusion:

The instance of gas explosion in a hydrogen car was 0.0005 per car per year.

ROFL.

Care to guess how many gasoline care fires happen and kill people in the United States per year?


Again, this is *YOUR* report. Not mine...
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Evidence more dangerous from many sources:

https://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2021/Clarity%20Fuel%20Cell/features/FAQs/1/faqs-faq

notice how they put so much effort into making the fuel cell safe...that is quite a lot of work, must be dangerous, more dangerous than gasoline as they do not do as much to protect a gas tank....

How safe is hydrogen?

Many steps are taken at both hydrogen station and vehicle levels, which include hydrogen sensors, adherence to safety standards and electronic shut-off valves, to help ensure safety performance.

Hydrogen itself is lighter than air and disperses quickly into the atmosphere, and when handled responsibly and with proper care, it is no more dangerous than other common vehicle fuels.

How safe is the Clarity Fuel Cell?
Like all Honda cars, the Clarity Fuel Cell has been designed to have a high level of safety performance.

Honda has spent the last 20 years developing and redefining fuel cell technology. Our engineers mounted the hydrogen fuel tanks securely in the sub frame. Tanks are designed to meet numerous stringent global safety standards and constructed with a high-tech aluminum wound in carbon fiber, making them incredibly strong and impact-resistant. Additionally, the Clarity Fuel Cell comes equipped with the Honda Sensing™ suite of safety and driver-assistive technology features, including Collision Mitigation Braking System™ (CMBS™),* among others. Clarity Fuel Cell also utilizes the next-generation of the Advanced Compatibility Engineering™ (ACE™) Body Structure for improved frontal crash protection.


and, the poor dealers that service Hydrogen cars, so much effort to prevent deaths, all those safety protocols must mean Hydrogen is LESS SAFE than gasoline:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111440_how-do-you-service-a-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-at-a-dealer

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from the article:
But if service work has to touch either the hydrogen storage tanks or the fuel-cell stack itself, or the plumbing that connects those elements, the rules change in a very major way.

Conventionally, working with hydrogen requires a "hardened shop," in which work areas are fitted with hydrogen detectors, curtains around the area, and lighting fixtures that are explosion-proof.

Under the hydrogen-vehicle regulations, Honda can service its Clarity in a "non-hardened shop" if it follows the specific procedures below to ensure the car is in a "minimum-fueled state," meaning the bulk of the hydrogen has been removed from its tanks, stack, and plumbing.

The regulations require that less than 0.5 kilogram of hydrogen, at approximately 580 pounds per square inch, remain in the Clarity's two tanks combined during service. Their total capacity is 5.5 kg at 10,000 psi when full.

To drain the tanks of their hydrogen if a car comes into the dealer with more than that amount of fuel requires a very specific process that takes place outside the service bays.

It's usually done in a designated area of the parking apron that's only accessible to service personnel, Reed said. It will be away from tall buildings, with minimum height and distance requirements that are specified by the state.

In that marked-off 23-foot by 35-foot work area, the car is joined by a large rolling cart full of tools specific to hydrogen vehicles, a battery charger, and a set of components that are assembled into an 11-foot-high vent stack to be connected to the car.

The cart contains two 300-cubic-foot cylinders, one each of pressurized helium and nitrogen, and a portable hydrogen leak detector, along with grounding wires, high-pressure steel hoses, and such tools as a hex driver for the tank valves.

Mechanics position the car within the designated area, put it up on jack stands, electronically switch off the hydrogen supply to the fuel cell using the scan tool, and direct the fuel cell to power itself down, which takes 2 or 3 minutes.

It can take "a delicate hand" to switch off the hydrogen supply valves under the car, Reed said, which takes place during the tightly choreographed timing sequence of steps.

Once those steps have been completed, most of the danger of the fuel-cell stack producing electricity has been alleviated.

The next step is to neutralize the stack, first by filling it with helium at approximately 220 psi and pushing that through the stack and out the exhaust pipe.

After again relieving line pressure, the hydrogen fuel-supply line from the tanks in the rear to the stack under the hood is then disconnected, and up to three braided venting hoses are run out of the car to the venting stack, which is grounded via a steel rod.

The next step is to install a “defueling joint" on the disconnected fuel line. With the defueling joint properly installed, both fuel tank valves can be opened. At this point, the scan tool is used to electronically open the fuel tank solenoids so hydrogen can vent through the tall stack
That process can take from 30 minutes to 3 hours, Reed said, while service personnel monitor the scan tool connected to the car's control electronics to track its progress.

When the hydrogen is largely gone from the tank itself, the rest of the car's plumbing has to be flushed to remove remaining hydrogen in its fuel lines.

That's done using a nitrogen purge function that pumps pure nitrogen through the plumbing for 5 minutes, after another sequence of valve closings and shutoffs, and vents it through the grounded stack.

(etc...)

 

I say UFO abductions are real.

You say, hogwash, but you're open-minded, can I provide evidence?

I respond: NOT. ENOUGH. ABDUCTIONS. TO. MAKE. A. DATA. POINT.

(sigh)

 

Prove that a person has been abducted by aliens. Provide actual scientific evidence.

 

Exactly! You got it sir!

now you understand what I’m asking of you.

 

You did see this part, indicating the report is not "worldwide" but pretty much Europe specific and I already copied in text regarding their example of Germany (5 cars per year exploading)

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===

And, "car fires" killing people is quite different than a car that EXPLODES...and most car fires that kill are because the occupants are not conscious or are so severely injured they cannot move fast enough to get away from the flames...

 

Many, many years ago, I did a tour in the gulf of mexico on a 330 foot ship shooting seismic for oil maps. Not to get in the weeds, but we ran six 60 foot floats each having eight guns to fire to put sound waves 80,000 feet below the gulf floor. Long story short, the air guns would charge to 2000 psi for firing, and if one of the 48 air guns did not fire within 10ms of all the other guns we had to pull it up and rebuild it. That was my job. Before we pull the float in with the problematic air gun, we bleed all of them on the float to 500 psi, they self fire, and they would be at zero psi and then we bring the float next to boat and use a crane to lift it out the water, rebuild the air gun and relaunch the float. well, we go through the process, and pull the float next to the ship, and one gun did not self fire from 500 psi and went off right next to the side of the ship. It sounded and felt like a torpedo had put a hole in the ship. It was all hands on deck looking if we had a breach and to execute emergency procedures, it was crazy. Now, according to the article above, the hydrogen tank in my car is going to be 10,000 psi?? Yeah right. I don't think I will be around any tank at 10,000 psi. @paulchua may be ok with that though.

 

All good, the irony is I said hydrogen will lose. Get back to me when the first hydrogen car spontaneously blows up ala the Hindenburg above.

unlike others, in the face of evidence, I have a growth mindset. open to leaning more and changing my mind.

some stubbornly go down with the ship, frankly I should be thankful.

 

@paulchua

How about 10,000PSI in you hand/grip:

From:
https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/2021/mirai_fueling_V11.pdf

Some hydrogen fueling stations have two different fueling nozzles:

H70 for full-capacity and H35 for half-capacity. H70 & H35 are measures of pressure: H70 is approximately 70MPa / 10,000PSI;

H35 is approximately 35MPa/5,000PSI.

The Mirai is compatible with both the H35 and H70 nozzles, however, it is optimized for H70 fueling, which contributes to a longer driving range.

 

I presume you understand the economics of hydrogen cars make zero sense; from hydrogen fuel stations that only fuel 6 cars a day to the cost to the constant safety concerns and given how few hydrogen fueling stations (for cars) there are in the world, the number of explosions at those stations is not comforting in the least.

And, for what purpose? De-carbonization? Which is impossible, for instance, annually, worldwide, forest fires release 540 times more CO2 than the ~1.5T gallons of gasoline consumed each year...so, even if all gasoline was completely eliminated, it would make no difference what-so-ever (@ .185% of forest fires, annually) in the amount of atmospheric CO2 (and that's just forest fires, the oceans also emit CO2 as to volcanoes, etc)

 

A motto of mine (stolen from Prager, with my own twist) “I prefer honest disagreement, over false consensus.

your position: H2 cars are ticking time bombs.
my position; H2 cars are no more dangerous for gas explosions then gasoline tanks.

isn’t it grand the internet is forever?

Let’s Civilly agree to disagree.

 

I read the only they could do to pierce it was a armor busting sniper round

 

Oh and there’s Oregan

 

Perhaps, but that is not the only way Hydrogen can be released in an uncontrolled manner.

When you get a chance, review:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111440_how-do-you-service-a-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-at-a-dealer

 

Hydrogen production now mostly comes from natural gas and is not what anyone would consider clean technology. My cynical view is that your average consumer won't care how the hydrogen is produced - steam reforming, electrolysis of water, unicorn farts - excepting nuclear power - as long as the economics are reasonable and they can brag to their friends about how they're saving the planet.

A potential advantage of hydrogen is that it could convert a mobile source of pollution into a fixed source, which in theory should be short to scrub or sequester.

Ammonia is likewise produced via old technology and not clean, but it is easier to liquefy than hydrogen so that's an advantage for ammonia. Gases are much more difficult to transport long distances than liquids. Also, given its widespread use in agriculture, infrastructure for ammonia transportation should be more facile to implement.

I suspect in the long run that the decision will not be a scientific or technical one though, but one decided by politicians who in general are not STEM graduates.

T