The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 417 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Flat out wrong conclusion.

    The IAC/PFA ruled against this car, based upon facts, way, way back and he, and a bunch of other international experts, are part of that group. There are reasons for silence by some that have zero to do with the fact that this is not 0846.
     
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  2. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    I started that sentence by stating "my interpretation" therefore it is not for you or anyone else to tell me what I think, you may have your own interpretation, and justify such, but don't tell me what I can think.

    The only person that could tell me that my interpretation is wrong, is the man himself. should he so choose, which I doubt he will at this time.
     
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  3. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    My take is not an interpretation but based upon facts from multiple expert sources. You should recognize that there have been discussions about this car for years that were held in places other than in this thread. For various reasons not everyone wanted to be making statements in a fully public forum when one of the actors had litigious tendencies.
     
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  4. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    Simply provide links then to such places for all to see, if what you state is fact then why has this thread lingered on for years with no definitive conclusion? and why is it still here, rather than in the sub forum?
     
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  5. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    wasn't Jim leaving kind of a conclusion? 0846 was a real Ferrari, it just might not be the one in Jim's garage.
     
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  6. 3500 GT

    3500 GT Formula 3

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    I believe if the car was ever offered on the market, it would bring strong money, regardless of the debate here.
     
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  7. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2009
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    If one looks at the facts objectively, they speak for themselves...aka, the metal has spoken conclusively.

    When one looks at the facts subjectively and brings opinions, interpretations, and biases into the mix, the conclusion becomes less definitive...NOT because the facts have changed, but because one chooses to allow an opinion to have equal weight as a fact.

    I suggest this thread keeps going because there are many who have opinions that just aren't supported by facts.
     
  8. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    certainly, I would call $2 million strong money, but I think a no stories similar original car could be talking $20 million?
     
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  9. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    No definitive conclusion? This thread has dissected element after element with detailed photo documentation as proof, courtesy in many cases by Steve. It is known who constructed the chassis and it was not a supplier that Ferrari used.

    Lots of proof from the most knowledgeable, some that are on F-chat and from others that never are/were. Just because they are not people you interact with does not make their information any less correct. The communications I am personally aware of/party to were from face-to-face meetings and private emails; not for public dissemination. Previously I gave a reason why some of these experts have not gone into a public environment to make their statements.
     
  10. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    It is not known who constructed the chassis, Piper gave the name of a company that no one had actually heard of or can trace from my understanding.

    Yes a number of photos that show the current iteration of Jims car not looking the same as some period photos of 0846 but as we all know these cars changed from race to race, so unless there is a vast catalogue of pics of the car from every race they are not definitive evidence that those show how it always was.

    Don't get me wrong I have no cast iron view either way, I am playing devils advocate here, asking questions that remain open for debate, I think its a great car whatever it is, and have given my own views as to how Jim may have become blinkered during his crusade to legitimise his belief that his car is related to the original.

    One thing that does not help is the actual title heading for the thread, as unless you are aware of how it evolved into its current format then the title makes no sense.

    Rob appears to now be confirming the thread is just about the actual original 0846 and Jims car is just a chapter in that story, and so the thread stays where it is for that reason, where as in reality it has become the other way around, with Jims car dominating the thread.

    A more up to date thread title may help, if it is staying in this section

    Something like "0846 - the only debate on fchat about the original examples history, the myths and the facts to date"

    The "one and only" in the current title confuses people into thinking Jims car is the actual one and only 0846 where as it really means this is the one and only thread in which discussion about 0846 should take place.
     
  11. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Do you know what the IAC/PFA is?

    Do you know any of the senior members of the IAC/PFA that are knowledgeable in this era of cars?

    IF you know any of them, do you know them well enough to talk about this subject? [This is not a trick question. Those that do now are usually reticent to start very much on this topic.]
     
  12. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    This is a debate thread Jeff, rather than get defensive, simply expand on what you are saying to clear any confusion on the points you are raising.

    Regardless of what I may or may not know, others may know even less, but still have an interest in the matter, so by doing so you will be helping the casual reader.

    Again do not tell me what I can and cannot comment on.
     
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  13. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    you are border line trolling, which I guess if Jim is your idol...

    anyway, the original 0846 history is very finite and documented. there are probably as many words about it as other historically significant SN's on FerrariChat. as long as Jim claims it is real, I think it deserves a spot on FerrariChat. I'm sure Jim would love for this thread to disappear and almost sounds like you are advocating the same.
     
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  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    you are the one talking in clouds, trying to distract from numbers, pictures, and respected historical findings.

    "If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”

    ― Carl Sandburg
     
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  15. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    Jim’s car doesn’t contain the 0846 chassis, doesn’t contain any iteration of an 0846 engine, doesn’t have the 0846 gearbox, doesn’t have suspension parts like uprights or brakes from 0846, doesn’t have the interior from 0846, and doesn’t have the body in part/whole from 0846.

    So maybe let’s work if from there other end. What part(s) from 0846 have been proven to be on DP003? I haven’t seen a matching number part posted anywhere in this 417 page thread by Jim or anyone else to show a single part of his car IS from 0846. Isn’t that the end of it?
     
  16. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    The number of people who go out of the their way to press the like button on many of my threads on fchat over the years should indicate to you that I am far from trolling, and I find your reply insulting. I believe the same label was applied to Steve for a very long time as well on this thread.

    Its your former site and you probably still get to chose who can and cannot play on it Rob, so if you wish to suppress the debate by banning me then that is your choice, and one which others will judge you by.
     
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  17. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    we're not rewriting history, the overall opinion in this thread shifted 180 degrees at some point.

    “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of light, it was the season of darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.”
     
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  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #10418 miurasv, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
    Silvano Cantelli and Mario Allegretti built the chassis.

    Paul, the pictures are actually definitive, including of 0846 at Le Mans, 1967, its last race, after which it was dismantled and scrapped by Ferrari. The pictures prove that 0846's chassis was always as a P3 at the front with a P3 arrangement of chassis tubes. P4s have a different arrangement of tubes at the front to accommodate adjustable bias brakes which 0846 was not updated with when converted to a P4. There are many differences at the front end between a P3, a 412 P which has a P3 chassis, and a P4. As David Piper has always stated, this replica chassis was built to P4, and NOT P3 plans. Pictures of Piper/Glickenhaus DP0003 prove it has been built using P4 plans as a guide, including at the front, with the arrangement of tubes as a P4 with adjustable bias brakes. See post here.

    The engine bulkhead tubes were converted to as a P4 on the real 0846 when converted to P4 specification, but DP0003 has many differences in the bulkhead. See post here for just one of the bulkhead posts showing the differences. There are others.

    The engine mountings and rear of the chassis have been discussed at length and are not Ferrari/Forghieri's Racing Dep't work. The DP0003 rear end of the chassis has actually been built using P4 plans as a guide, and the P4 arrangement of tubes, but with different tubular geometry to correctly mount a stressed member 4 litre P3 projecting lug engine with the front side mountings being further towards the back of the chassis further away from the bulkhead. Mr Glickenhaus states that those primary engine mountings are P3, not P4. He is wrong. Although P4 plans have been used as a guide for the rear chassis, there are many differences to the rear chassis to the real 0846 that was converted to FULL, IDENTICAL P4 specification to correctly mount the stressed member cross bolt P4 engine. DP0003 was later fitted with a cross bolt 3 litre 312 F1 36 valve F1 engine that looks like a P4 engine, but isn't, and a very unsound solution has been used to mount it using bolt on adaptors, drop down brackets, a drilled hole and a bent manipulated tube in the bulkhead to clear one of the pumps. The engine is not correctly and is unsoundly stressed in DP0003 with the 3 litre 312 F1 engine currently installed.

    What is very significant is that there has NEVER been a 4 litre P4 engine in this chassis. IT WILL NOT FIT. I've made many posts explaining the engine mountings and their tube arrangements, as well as other posts showing the numerous differences in the chassis, engine and ancillary parts.

    There is so much evidence already in this thread that proves this chassis, from the front to the back, has nothing whatsoever to do with the real 0846, as well as nothing to do with 0846's engine, transaxle or anything else.
     
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  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    #10419 PAUL500, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
    Thank you Steve, I believe that is the first time on this thread that the names of the chassis builders have been expanded on? as I recall on previous replies it was just a basic name no one could find any info on?

    Whilst a lot of the detail you have compacted into your reply may well be within the now 417 pages, those like yourself who have followed the debate from the start may not realise is that readers newer to the debate will probably only start a few pages back to try to get a gist of the debate, and it is not hard and fast in those pages what the current situation is.

    This will be further confused by recent vids still coming out on you tube from the opposing camp, promoting Jims car still as 0846 so if anyone has the time it might be a good idea to put together a definitive post pulling together all the detail via links to the relevant sections/pages/posts within this thread.

    Time consuming yes, but it could help put this matter to bed, well on fchat at least!

    For those that are in the mistaken belief that I am from the Jim camp, when Steve was being heavily vilified on this thread for standing his ground on his beliefs, to the extent that moderators were banning him, I was one of the very few at that time here who supported his rights to air his findings for all to see and discuss,.
     
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  20. Schlesser

    Schlesser Karting

    Feb 12, 2013
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    Your wish is my command!

     
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  21. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Whatever this car is, it is a great car. But it is not 0846.



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  22. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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  23. merstheman

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    I would say double that easily.
     
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  24. tomgt

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    Autofficina Al Mec, the shop of Silvano Cantelli
     
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  25. GTHill

    GTHill F1 World Champ
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    I told my son that he should turn this thread into a documentary. He won't... but I think he (or someone) should.
     
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