My goodness, If only that were true, I'm sure my wife would be a lot happier LOL. I shudder to think about how much I have debited over the last ~40 years in the name of sitting behind the, generally speaking, fastest factory version of any car I have owned (cue depreciation stories). You are right I am a collector, usually number around 6. In 2021 I have put 3.5K miles on my V12 Ferrari, about 4 on V8s and 3 on Utility turbos. I am currently looking for a vintage Ferrari specifically to put miles on it driving around Europe. Full disclosure, I have rarely been a fan of turbocharged cars, the NA sound and delivery are massive parts of the experience for me. My answer to your question today remains unchanged. If I were to buy one or the other tomorrow, it would unquestionably be the TDF. A few seconds on the track are not a big enough payback for me to balance against the mammoth that is imo opinion cobbled looks and a strangled sound. I suppose we are both so very fortunate to be able to own the cars we are so very passionate about.
Ok I have some time on my hands for the cavalry....... "people give more credibility to those that own across all Marques . Many of those exist on this car forum ." - Fantastic......I've owned Porsches, Jaguars, Maseratis, a Ferrari, AMGs, M Cars, Cosworths, Abarths, Audis........but if you are positioning towards asking me if I have ever owned a 1m+ track car that I only put 500 miles on a year then the answer is no. Could I fund a Senna purchase tomorrow? - At the prices I have seen, yes. "your previous postings seem to state that your first super car purchase was this year and a 2014 ff with 27k miles ? And you are trying to talk louder and cherry picking over the guys posting on this thread who own Senna’s and tdf, Carrera gt’s, 918’s and p1’s?" - Depends on your definition of supercar I suppose but my first.....probably a 993 911 about 25 years ago, that felt pretty super to a 26 year old. - I'm not trying to talk louder and I'm not sure what you mean about cherry pick. Whether my argument for the TDF vs Senna is convincing or compelling to an individual is another question entirely. A question was posed and I gave an answer and my reasons for coming to the conclusion that I did. If you cannot accept that there will be people that find the Senna to be god awful ugly that's your problem, don't ask the question without expecting fulsome answers on a forum where there is red passion. - I Generally reserve the right to talk as loudly as I feel to. fwiw; I own a senna , p1 (and a number of other McLarens ) and had f12, pista, specials, etc (and they weren’t garage queens ). - You are in a very fortunate person, well done. I’ve also been on track in my p1 chasing that senna that you posted at Willow springs (it was purchased at an auction that isn’t well known and bought by a re-seller and will be sold over msrp in the retail market ). Senna’s in USA are being sold over msrp in the retail market . - OK great, the best of luck to the seller. My context and musings are based on the sale prices I linked to and a UK market.
Aside from the bushing, I don't see anything in that service history of concern. It's basically just the anual services and normal checks. Those are done on all exotics so not sure why you think they are worth worrying about here. No matter the mileage, that stuff would have to be done on any new exotic. The only other thing is the pads, but I guess they were worn along with the tyres on a trackday. Nothing here sticks out. Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Congrats. We are all fortunate, I am sure that everyone who owns a special car gets equal enjoyment regardless of brand speed rarity. Owning an expensive car, above what a house costs makes no sense but if we all realize we are nuts then it's cheap therapy. Senna imo is the next CGT, two factories who did they best they could with what they had in a period of time. Many factories hold back to sell the next best thing, simply believe there are very few builds who went all in.
First bought 612 16M FF Challenge Car Speciale all very low like new examples - as far as Ferrari. Own RR Black Badge Dawn Aston DBX Bentley SV Viper GTS-R Carrera GT Jaguar special car add Healey's American muscle 15 motorcycles all different shapes and sizes. Problem I had is the regional F dealer wanted first right of refusal on 599GTO and same on tdf - I was not up for selling a car back at or below sticker - did not like the tether but when the new dealer opened up where I live ordered SF90 and 812GTS getting their first and quick deliveries within 6 months - got lucky and 765LT Spider incoming. Not sure why you need to back check but yours is inaccurate but let's drop the exercises. My final point, Senna was made for one reason to go as fast as physically possible on track. People can argue looks comfort blah but one thing that can never be argued is speed. I own a Carrera GT cancelled tdf and no desire P1 and 918. Senna breaks every track record, truth is what you feel to be loud my guess is you have a reason for which as much as you wish I am not responsible for. Mclaren Porsche Ferrari none are any better than another but for speed, the rest is perception. Hope you understand there are very few cars as rich as the Senna and the world appeal is larger than any other car will ever know and that's why I bought it, to be a part of something great that reflects the worlds greatest driver much like the 16M Schumacher constructors championship.
Ok, now I'm completely lost but I am sure that the manufacturers are very happy about our differing views. The best of luck to you.
To you as well, not about factory pleasings but like some tether the F12 tdf to early days of Ferrari. F1 Honda engines, Mclaren and Aryton Senna to current Mclaren Senna. Instead of a dollar value, a little history research will go a long way in appreciation.
I was done buying Mac's til Senna was announced. Had Sian and SCV12 allocations and had some head room issues - quickly pivoting to Senna. Been collecting Senna items for decades and luckily found XP new, buyer could not take delivery. Agree, what if but the line at Ferrari for such a car for me and many is impossible add min 500k msrp and then likely priced at 1m over msrp on 2nd hand market. Owning a car named Senna dedicated brakes seats bespoke build love it or hate it, it is possibly one of Mac's greatest ever achievements at a moment in time.
I actually went there to speak with them about a red LaFer that they are selling on behalf of a client and I was very surprised at this blue and orange Senna. It looks pretty good in person. Then I got home and looked at the photos and it looked pretty ordinary. I also got called yesterday on a White Senna…. Hmm…. May the Horse be with you
Both. But remember one cost about $600k and the other about $1 million new. The fact that both are close in price shows the relative market appreciation of the TdF as compared to the Senna. Comparing both is like apples and oranges though. One is a front engine V12 while the other a mid turbo 8. Having just done three sessions in the GTR today, I assure you one is a track car, the other really is not. I have tracked my TdFs. I just don’t find them particularly good at it. The faster I get, the less I wish to push the TdF to 80%. The Senna is easily pushed and predictable when sliding. The TdF weight balance, steering feel, and skittishness past 80% is not confidence inspiring, on track. I have sold a few of my TdFs in this robust market, I sold the street Senna. I don’t see selling the Fuoco TdF nor the Senna GTR. But one is a beautiful, collectible, unreal sounding Ferrari, the other is a gentlemen’s track car. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I doubt you’d see a different reaction. Just check out the SP3 thread and the number of vitriolic comments on a car that is infinitely more beautiful than the Senna. And remember the reception on the SF90, which is also incredibly capable but heavy and not all that beautiful. The Ferrari crowd is very demanding when it comes to styling… In my humble opinion McLaren have done a poor job building a core group of “loyalists” that will hail every new car as the best car in the world…This would necessitate converting some of the Ferrari top clients. Many Ferrari top clients that I know personally stopped buying McLaren when they got refused a Senna (while owning several McLarens at the time) only to see Shmee receive an allocation. Ferrari never allocate cars to influencers, while McLaren prioritise them ahead of clients who would simply buy everything they produce. This also explains the poor secondhand market performance and the fact that a P1 is half the price of a LaF even though it is rarer and a truly excellent car. Aston Martin followed a similar path and now the Vanquish Zagato cars are crashing in the market. Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
Shmee owned a few Mclaren's makes sense he received a Senna. Ferrari has a line out the door and around the corner for limited editions. Mclaren owners rarely own more one or two - newer company there really is no comparison as Ferrari is the world leader in branding. Ferrari customers or Mclaren you can see here are cross shopping and Mclaren is competing head to head on some models. I own and like both but Mac focus is lightweight speed performance in addition MSO worlds best craftsmanship. Carbon tub carbon body on the less expensive models is also not a comparison but Ferrari is very good at what they do - there is no doubt and this place proves it. Moving forward - it's going to get interesting and like Lamborghini things change.
I would like to point out that both the TdF and Senna downforce numbers are at 250 km/h. I would also like to point out that both numbers are gross downforce without lift deducted. While both cars have positive downforce, both cars also have significantly less actual downforce in the real world. The numbers are calculated by adding up the aero elements which create downforce. Porsche, McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo etc. all do this. This is what sets a company like Koenigsegg apart. They quote net. downforce. Anyhoo, it's really difficult to compare downforce between cars, because we don't know what we actually got. Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Feel free to run a Challenge car on track with and without a wing - one will spin and will not. Ferrari moved to a wing on the Challenge cars because they work. On your next drive - stick your old phone out the window sideways and turn it flat at 100 mph multiply that times an aero wing on your new phone. There is no equal in Ferrari's line up to Senna - it's ok as it was just posted that Mac made Ferrari guys mad cause by not being able to get a Senna - sort of rich to think it's now not good enough after they couldn't have one. I give up as until someone drives one it's meaningless. Keep in mind one does not have to be better than the other to make both a great car for the owner. Only thing that matters is the owners view at this point and if you want to talk about downforce speed there are track videos that are available.
Interesting point, I hadn’t thought about that. As far as I’m aware, the Senna is the only street car that has ‘too much’ downforce at 250 kph and needs to bleed it off by stalling the rear wing. Perhaps the Valkyrie does this as well?
Well I was the one that made the comment about Ferrari owners and I don’t see me writing anywhere that the Senna is not good enough. Have another go at reading my post if you didn’t get it first time. I have driven every single McLaren model except for the F1 and I have owned 650s, 675LT Coupe and Spider and 720S Coupe all from new. I never said the cars are bad, I wouldn’t buy them if they were. I said that McLaren’s client strategy is bad and this is demonstrated by the secondhand performance of their models which is terrible as well as their total inability to sell cars like the Elva. By the way, many of the “Ferrari guys” who were not offered a Senna (despite owning more McLarens than Shmee), were offered Elvas. Which proves my point about their lack of a coherent client strategy… Ferrari’s branding didn’t happen by accident. It is a perfectly honed marketing machine that treats its loyal clients really well and manages the “circle of friends” with great skill. When (if) McLaren learns how to do it, it will become a great competitor to the prancing horse. Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
Truly amazing as per usual. How often do you get out to Thermal?? What’s the Senna GTR on track like compared to the La Ferrari? Is there a better track car with license plates available? Or just better to buy a GT3 race car? May the Horse be with you
Thermal over 100 days a year. Senna GTR better on track than LA Ferrari as it is a dedicated track car versus a street car. Also, no battery weighing it down. FXXK Evo suffers from the same handicap. The 918 Weissach is a very good street car on track. But a GT3 pure racecar would be much, much better. For much, much less. 765 LT, Dodge Viper ACR, and 918 Weissach are my top three non racecar street cars on the track. The SF90 is close. I like the 458 Speciale and 488 Pista. No love for rear engine Porsches as I cannot drive them very well on track.
I have no idea. I don't know anything about the Valkyrie. The thing about bleeding off pressure to reduce downforce is not new. Others do this as well. They just don't talk about it like that. Just look at the DRS. It basically does the same. The issue is that you set up a street car to work in a wide range of speeds in terms of the suspension. But you also want some downforce that works at a reasonable speed. That's difficult to do because you also don't want to collapse the suspension at high speed. Porsche fit the RS cars with very stiff suspension at the cost of comfort, where others use active aero to combat this issue. There's also trying to avoid front end lift. A lot ofcthe downforce is on the rear which means the front gets light. So removing downforce via a DRS or similar system keeps the car planted at high speed. Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
To me what McLaren is doing to create a loyal core clientele looks like a big mess. I have owned zero McLarens and have little interest, and yet as late as of Monday this week, I was offered an Elva allocation. I mean, really? Are they that much in a bind with that car, or just really desperate to geþ me away from Ferrari? Very odd and just another sign that shows me that I'm doing the right thing by not getting involved with McLaren. I would think that such a car would be offered to loyal clients, not me. Strange. No thanks. Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Agree that McLaren could have done a lot of things differently. Hopefully they course correct going forward. That said, would I deny myself of their cars because of that? No. They make some incredible models that I’m very happy to own and would purchase again in a heartbeat. One could ask why Ferrari owners accept certain things about their cars that should be unacceptable at that price level. It’s tolerated because they want the overall package and importantly, to be part of the brand, history etc. I think McLaren customers care less about the company status and more about the product technology, performance etc.
