Clause 15.3 and why Masi broke the rules | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Clause 15.3 and why Masi broke the rules

Discussion in 'F1' started by Turkishguy33, Dec 18, 2021.

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  1. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    You guys are comical.
     
  2. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Hi Mate I'll give it a go with my two pence worth ;)

    I get the reasoning behind the Hamilton hate and the joy that has manifested itself as he was beaten, I'd like to assume it's the boredom of watching Hamilton win year after year that caused it, in which I can go with, but I have no doubt that's only half the story with some on here, however methinks alot do not really agree with the manner in which Max won it, but will take it anyway.

    I seriously had no problem with Lewis getting beaten or Max winning fair and square, however I really would have hated Lewis to have won the race in the manner Max did, Masi having a complete melt down, getting his head constantly pecked by Toto and Horner probably didn't help, but that is no excuse.

    So it seems to me it's the Lewis hate brigade jumping on Masi had carte blanche to do as he pleased, and the Ham fans making a mockery of the absurd way the rules were applied. I thought it was bad with enough when Mosley ran the show, but this one hands down beats his clown acts, it was a total and utter cock up of a decision, the OP has pointed out why the results could be contested, it isnt rocket science to me, it was a complete and utter farce to the end of a great race and that's a great shame, IMO either Max or Lewis could have been worthy champs, but not as it stands.

    Imagine the noise on here if Lewis had won the same way Max did, wow. :eek:
     
  3. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    He has every right as you have to a opinion, regardless of being a new poster, or is it your preference to chase off anyone new that doesn't agree with your opinions.. :rolleyes:
     
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  4. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    This seems like a pretty unlikely place for a random Hamilton fan to suddenly show up and perseverate on a WDC that Red Bull and the FIA stole from him. Ferrari is the pretty pleased and very distant third horse in that race. Why here, and not HamiltonChat, RedBullChat, or F1Chat?
     
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  5. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    G0od to hear from you again. Yes I did get tired of the monotony of Lewis winning the titles each year. Plus I got very disenfranchised by his politics. And I like Max.
     
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  6. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Easy there. Kraftwerk has been on FChat for many many years.
     
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  7. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    "I didn't read the thread, but wanted to reply anyway..."
     
  8. GTHill

    GTHill F1 World Champ
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    Once a decision like this is made during a sporting event, it makes little sense to change the ruling later because the other outcome (if a different decision would have been made) is unknown. I'm not taking either side for the ruling but I am saying that it's not possible to undo the ruling AND make Hamilton the winner.

    The finishing order for something that didn't happen is an unknown.
     
  9. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

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    I respectfully disagree. See post #22 above (not mine).

    Pitting has little to do with it. How about Masi throws a red flag (his discretion)? Then Hamilton gets a free tire change. Think the outcome would be different? Would we be upset, claiming a red flag was not necessary??? I think I would.

    Rule 15.3 did not eliminate Rule 48.12. You read rules so that each can be effective. Easy to do here.

    Don't allow cars to unlap, then no additional lap needed for the Safety Car. 1 green lap as we had, but back markers in the way. Throw blue flag at back markers before green flag if necessary, that is certainly in Masi's discretion as Race Director (although they are fighting for position which is just as important to them as the race leaders fighting for position). Really not that hard.

    The fact that Max won is great for Ferrari fans; it gets old watching Hamilton win year after year. Max is probably the more talented (if not yet accomplished) driver in the field. And he is only 24! That doesn't change the inherent unfairness, unless the ends justify the means.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
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  10. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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  11. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    Masi operated within the rules and per the discussions he and the teams had agreed to before hand. I never said there weren’t other options to him. I’ve only said he operated within the rules. Mercedes and their fans have become accustomed to favoritism toward Mercedes, which is unfair to every other team, from the sport and that became “normal” and expected from people so now going to a neutral stance to Mercedes feels unnatural to all the Mercedes fans. Tough ****. It wasn’t fair to Ferrari when F1 banned physical testing of cars simply because Ferrari owns a couple of F1 tracks.
     
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  12. #37 lorenzobandini, Dec 19, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2021
    Let me think....no.

    Not a fact.....your whim:
    "He was denied because Mercedes didn’t pit and RB did."

    A fact, in black and white:
    "Article 48.12:

    If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the Safety Car. This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the Line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first Safety Car line for the second time after the Safety Car was deployed.

    Having overtaken the cars on the lead lap and the Safety Car these cars should then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and make every effort to take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the Safety Car. Whilst they are overtaking, and in order to ensure this may be carried out safely, the cars on the lead lap must always stay on the racing line unless deviating from it is unavoidable.

    Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the Safety Car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader (lap 57) the Safety Car will return to the pit at the end of the following lap." (lap 58, race over). If the clerk of the course considers track conditions are unsuitable for overtaking the message "OVERTAKING WILL NOT BE PERMITTED" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system."
     
  13. ebobh15

    ebobh15 F1 Rookie
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    The rules, the rules...taking the entire season into account, and also that referees quite often "even the score" informally when they've previously made a bad call, lots of factors people tend to forget with one big play at the end of the game.

    Going back to 2020's DAS, in Brazil, Mercedes claimed it was an "optical illusion" when video showed Hamilton pulling back on his steering wheel to raise the front of the car. Mercedes exploited a gap in the rules with regard to engine swaps once they figured out a new engine meant only to last a few races was far better than trying to stick with an old one that would continue to decline in performance.

    Red Bull had to swap out an engine (and lots of other things) at Silverstone, yet the culprit (I know, people may disagree re who was at fault) got a ten-second penalty with a car that was far superior to any others in the race (except the other Mercedes) and 25 points for the win. Bottas divebombing on Hamilton's chief rival was certainly a true accident, yet the team (and Hamilton) directly benefitted by another 25 points.

    The flexi-wing was present for at least a couple races, and I'm still not sure if they checked the front aero array, since it's flexibility under race conditions would provide an even more dramatic assist if it were "nudged" by a couple millimeters. Ferrari got ripped for their "advancements" in their powerplant and everyone not a tifosi chortled and merely presumed that all races were tainted, then and previously. For Mercedes, they call them "advancements" and officials smile (hey don't do that again, guys).

    Masi has been a witness to all of this, and refs often shade calls due to the unconscious effect of home crowds, people yelling at them, etc., which is why it's great that team principals won't be able to directly lobby them henceforth. Was his call (in the heat of the moment with both teams pushing him, and with little time to deliberate) flawed? Probably. if he had let all lapped cars through when the safety car period had started, that was the most defensible decision - and would still have resulted in the outcome we have. In many ways, the decision to only let the ones between the two rivals through is a distinction without a difference IMHO.

    Winners hate to lose, which is why they win in the first place. I don't agree with the old NASCAR meme that if you're not cheating, you're not trying, and also have a number of examples of winners who went beyond the line. Mercedes runs the edge as a rule, went over it at times, and karma caught up with them. Not sure if Hamilton not pitting was karma, or if their fear of falling behind overwhelmed their common sense to see that if he had fresh tires, he would have moved back to 1st place pretty easily. The first half of this season, Red Bull was dominant, and I was sorry to see Mercedes appear to have thrown in the towel. Maybe that was one more "rope a dope" like Hamilton's in-car radio transmissions of his tires fading, his car doing badly, and all of those other times when he was speaking so others could hear and react. Maybe their confidence led to hubris, which made them insensitive to what was emerging on track instead of what they planned. Maybe their shock at realizing they had neglected to think of the right strategy call made them under-responsive when it counted.

    I'm sure those are the things they're thinking about, either with one another or during those times when you sit by yourself and scream. I'm glad they didn't protest, though, even though they may have had a case on the merits of things everyone has discussed.

    Re Olympic medals, the 1972 American Basketball Team suffered the most egregious rulings in-game of any sport anywhere when the Soviets were given multiple chances to "win" the game. To their credit, their silver medals still sit in the vault at the IOC, a much more powerful statement than any court battle might have been.
     
  14. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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  15. Turkishguy33

    Turkishguy33 Rookie

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    I disagree. Let’s not forget that Masi has spent many years training to be a race director. He spent a long time working under Charlie Whiting. He should know the rules like the back of his hand and has had all week to go through potential hypotheticals for the highly anticipated showdown finale.

    This is his job remember. His actions are either pure incompetence - I.e scrambling to get the rule book out on something as procedural as a safety car which any competent RD should know like the back of their hand - or it’s something more sinister. As soon as horner lobbied him saying “we just need one lap” he issued his absurd decision.
     
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  16. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    That argument is dangerous, man.
     
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  17. Turkishguy33

    Turkishguy33 Rookie

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    I wouldn’t waste your energy. His opinions are about as vacuous as they come. He is literally making up a fictitious narrative because that’s all he’s got. I don’t get the animosity to Hamilton here, is it because this is a Ferrari forum and he’s overtaken Michael as the GOAT of the sport?
     
  18. absostone

    absostone F1 Veteran
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    manipulating man!!
     
  19. Turkishguy33

    Turkishguy33 Rookie

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    How so?
     
  20. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    It’s not always black and white. That’s why 15.3 exists. What is black and white is that prior to the race the teams and race control agreed to end under racing conditions. That’s what they did. Mercedes could have pitted and didn’t. RB did. RB won.
     
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  21. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    Keep spinning like Vettel in a Ferrari and your rears won't make it to the end of the stint.
     
  22. Turkishguy33

    Turkishguy33 Rookie

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    Not sure what you’re getting at. That I’ll get banned for simply stating facts? There are a lot of trolls in here that contribute nothing that are in need of a long time out.
     
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  23. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    Don’t get your little feelers hurt, Kristin Stewart.
     
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  24. He's not "trolling", 'matter of fact, 'posting intelligent, coherent posts. Sooooo, more importantly, why not?
    I'm glad I've bookmarked https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/worst-current-driver.575908/page-8, it comes in handy on occasions such as this. ;)
     
  25. Turkishguy33

    Turkishguy33 Rookie

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    Where are we looking? Is this where crinoid says verstappen is the worst driver in the grid?

    Clearly he just spews nonsense to get a reaction. If the moderators here are fine with it one can only hope that the retirement village restricts his internet access.
     
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