Houston, we have a problem... | FerrariChat

Houston, we have a problem...

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Texas Forever, Dec 28, 2021.

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  1. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,370
    Texas!
    Modern sport cars, including Ferraris, are too good. I recently drove a buddy's 458 from Ashville to St. Pete. (If you weren't so cheap, you'd pony up the $15 and read all about it.) What a magnificent car. There is only one problem. How do you drive a car like this on public roads without going to jail?

    I'm trying to recall:

    7/10s means you are chirping the tires on a few corners.

    8/10s means you are getting noise on almost all corners.

    9/10s means you are getting 15 degrees slip on all corners.

    10/10s means you are doing the dirty boogie. In a 20-minute sprint, you are there about half the time.

    11/10s - 10/11s means you are the man. You are doing what very few can do.

    11/11s - means you are dead or a F1 driver.

    I can't imagine doing 7/10s in a 458, particularly in someone else's car. Even if it was my car...

    Here's my problem. I came of age during the '60s. Trick question: what was the horsepower of a Ferrari 250 GTO? What was the horsepower of a F40? A 458 has 560 hp. I don't feel comfortable driving a 458 past 7/10s on the street.

    To me, a Miata, maybe with a supercharged motor, is more fun to drive.

    Am I a wuss?
     
    Bryanp, Jakuzzi, Ffre92 and 1 other person like this.
  2. Caphill

    Caphill Karting

    Nov 9, 2016
    179
    No you are not. You are rational and caring about other motorists on the road. Just wait till it is all electric. Then everyone will be as dangerous.
     
    veelangs, jpalmito, Jakuzzi and 2 others like this.
  3. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    Why I like vintage cars. You can be entertained without the risk of arrest.

    I was offered an Aventador to try out by the local Lamborghini dealer where I live. For reference, the most powerful sports car I own is a Testarossa - about 380 hp. The Aventador I drove had double that amount! Initially I was excited to try it, but after driving it for an hour or so I was ready to give it back. It is simply either too fast to be appropriate for even the reasonably empty desert roads where I live, or so competent at low, legal speeds that it is boring. The only thing to do with it 99% of the time is to be seen driving it (not my thing). Meanwhile, the humble Testarossa is endlessly entertaining in the range between the posted speed limit and the speed at which the car would be impounded. Sure, I can get a small photo radar ticket, but generally I don't.

    To drive the Aventador at the speeds it wants to go looks ridiculous; is invites other road users to complain or call the police. Meanwhile, with one of my old cars, I can be enjoying it just as much, but get a grin and thumbs up from other drivers.
     
  4. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    This is a real problem on track too. Driver’s want to turn off traction control and drive their cars like men…but they cannot handle them and crash. A 911 today has twice the power of an 80’s 911. It hits the wall faster and harder. Non-incidents that were spins off the track at 60 now make it all the way into the Armco at 100.
     
  5. Dave Bertrand

    Dave Bertrand Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 24, 2005
    770
    Castle Rock, CO
    This is exactly why I have always preferred older, lighter, smaller, nimbler sports cars. You can use ALL the available performance they offer, whereas with a modern supercar you can only use a small fraction of it on public roads. Even when you have the opportunity to open them up on an empty road, you can only be at full throttle for about 2 or 3 seconds before you have to back off. That might be fun for the first few weeks of ownership, but I get bored with that pretty quickly and then it just becomes a really cool looking car. Hardly worth hundreds of thousands.

    The most fun car I ever drove was powered by a 1.5 hp lawnmower engine. It was a go-kart that probably had a top speed of 25 mph and ran on 8" tires with my butt about 3" off the ground. It was tiny. It was light enough you could pick it up and carry it around by yourself. It handled like no street-legal car can possibly handle. It was more responsive than anything I've ever driven.

    The closer a sports car comes to the feeling of driving that go-kart, the better. No modern Ferrari or any other supercar can even get within a light-year of it. By comparison they are huge, heavy, isolate you from the road, and have numb steering.

    That's why I bought a 328 when I could have bought almost any modern Ferrari under a million $. With the 328, I can accelerate to redline in the first 4 gears without getting arrested or risking my life. Try doing that with any Ferrari built in the last 15 years and you'll be upside down in a tree.

    No thanks. The new cars look terrific and are mighty impressive, but they just can't hold a candle to an older classic for pure driving enjoyment.
     
  6. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    That is why I always wanted Ferrari to make a small, nimble, light car. Preferably with a 2 liter NA 12 cylinder with a stratospheric redline and a manual transmission, but with a sub 200 mph top speed. Think of a modern, road legal Ferrari 212 E Montagna.
     
  7. vraa

    vraa F1 Rookie
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    Oct 31, 2003
    3,492
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    You have my number call me when you are in jail I'll bail you out I will always have your back
     
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  8. wfu97

    wfu97 Karting

    Jul 15, 2018
    95
    North Carolina USA
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Completely agree. This is exactly why I sold my fairly new 911 Turbo and bought my 328. Very happy with my decision.
     
  9. PaulK

    PaulK F1 Rookie
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    Apr 24, 2004
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    I agree that cars are too fast these days.

    But what is worse is the lack of personality that they have. They are all B-O-R-I-N-G boring.
     
  10. Shorn355

    Shorn355 F1 Veteran
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    Jan 13, 2011
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    Well then you have a fellow "wuss" - I drive my 458S between 3 and 7/10s on public roads - usually around 5/10s - for the same reasons you eloquently stated. May take it to 7/10s in some of our wide open roads in Colorado with no intersections, inlets etc. and predictable pavement but that is rare. Plus I don't want to be "the guy" in a Ferrari that is driving like an idiot - to me that either a) supports some of the unfair/unwarranted stereotypes of Ferrari owners and b) I have zero confidence in the people around me and frankly I have a lot more to lose than the distracted idiot in the non-maintained beater. I find driving in traffic in the right lane just cruising at/around the speed limit and not darting in and out of traffic is much more enjoyable and reflects well on the marque - not to mention keeping my insurance low :)

    When I was younger and a Ferrari was just a dream I rode superbikes with my buddies on the street and in the canyons. One day we went into a local shop and were talking all this smack about knee pucks and titanium exhausts etc. and the wise older parts guy said "hey I have an item that will definitely make you all faster and it only costs $15 - intrigued and excited we all awaited the magic item - it was a stopwatch - followed but the wry statement "if you want to push your limits and that of the bike then take your butts to the track and use the stopwatch" - To me the same words ring true when driving any of my high-performance and high-profile cars.

    Lastly, my 355 GTS is significantly "slower" than the 458 but I get just as much - if not more - driving enjoyment out of it.

    Just my .02 - Cheers :)
     
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  11. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
    75,370
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    They are boring when driven way below their limits. To them to the limit, and things change in a hurry. Problem is you need to be on the track, not public roads.
     
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  12. Shorn355

    Shorn355 F1 Veteran
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    #12 Shorn355, Dec 29, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
    WADR I disagree with your early statement - I don't find it necessary to drive anywhere near the limit for the car to be enjoyable and not boring. To me it is all about mindset - if you are setting out on public roads with traffic, stupidity, incompetent/distracted drivers, intersections etc. then you can still enjoy the car but in a different way - i.e. actually smelling the leather - looking at the beautiful fit and finish - hearing the engine - seeing the reactions and thumbs-up from people as they drive past/around you or you pass them - take the time to wave back etc. None of that can happen when your hair is on fire and focused on over-driving the car (and perhaps your talent) in a non-controllable environment - and to me that is different but certainly not boring. To me if the only enjoyment someone derives out of their high-performance/exotic car is exploring the limits then just buy a track car and a trailer.

    As far as your statement of needing to be on the track, I fully, fully agree - hence my earlier post. Plus if you do lose it and "over-explore" the limits of the car (or the driver) there are usually decent run-offs to avoid serious damage and injury and it is a controlled environment with everyone going the same direction and (hopefully) paying attention to what they are doing versus checking email, posting on Twitter or dealing with the screaming brats in the back seat.

    Cheers :)
     
  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    There is another component. I came of age during the '60s, which was probably the Golden Age of cars and motorcycles. To me, a sports car is small, as in Miata small. Trust me, I loved driving a 458 (thank you Steve). But I'm not going to drive someone else's car anywhere near the limit. But even if the car had been mine, I dunno. It is over the top good. The problem is I'm a car/motorcycle guy through and through. If I have the power, I'm going to use it.
     
  14. Shorn355

    Shorn355 F1 Veteran
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    Totally get it and agree - To echo your point a friend of mine followed me in his S2000 to drop off my 355 for her major a month ago - for the ride back to my storage units he asked if I wanted to drive the S2000 and I took him up on it - I had a flippin BLAST and was nowhere near getting in trouble legally or physically - Additionally, as I was working my way up to Ferrari-ship I had an early BMW Z3 - same thing - had a blast every time I drove it and was well within my limits as well as the legal limits.

    I wish I had the funds to experience one of the classic Ferrari's like a 275 GTB or 250 Cali Spider - I am sure (to your point) that the driving experience would be amazing despite the cars being nowhere near as technologically advanced or as powerful as the new cars.

    Good thread - as usual :) Cheers!
     
  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    Here's reality. You crash a '50s or '60s Ferrari, you're going to die. I have a 1974 Jensen Healey. I don't how they slipped it by the control freaks, but they did. When I drive it, I'm very aware a crash will kill me. Needless to say...

    Look at the James Dean car. Talk about a death trap. But you can crash a 458 or 488 and walk away. There is a lot to be said for that.
     
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  16. Shorn355

    Shorn355 F1 Veteran
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    Indeed and well-said :) I would still LOVE to try and would accept the risk - would also probably drive the thing like a 80-year old grandma going to bingo so chances of crashing would be minimal - ha! :)
     
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  17. Turbopanzer

    Turbopanzer F1 World Champ

    Oct 2, 2011
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    Maybe. Ever drive a 930 Porsche Turbo? For the early part of the drive it behaves nicely. Upon reaching 3300rpm the car takes on a different character. As you pass 3300rpm all hell breaks loose and from there to the redline it pushes you rather hard into the seat. It does this until you either run out of guts or run out of road. In the turns it acts like any 911. Even with the fat rear tire and the small tail spoiler it washes out with the tradition nose lift undrersteer. But it is a WOW kinda car. Puts a grin on your face from ear to ear. Once you master it, like killing fish with a shotgun. It is truly a fun car to drive. Top end....how big you personal package is determines your final velocity. Just keep your checkbook handy. It is rather thirsty and a bit finicky when it comes to keeping one in tune.

    Still..one should drive one before settling for a lesser performance ride.
     
  18. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
    75,370
    Texas!
    Many years ago, I have a Yamaha Rzed 500. Two stroke mofo. What a bike. You shifted as fast as you could (without a clutch) going up. Downshifting was a joke. Amazing bike. Wish I still had it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_RD500LC
     
  19. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 World Champ
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    Nov 9, 2010
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    I have more fun in my Honda Acty 30.6hp mini truck, then I do driving a comp E46 M3 around where I live.

    And my 3.2 Mondial was more fun that the 550M, I could sling it.

    Guess it all depends :)
     
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  20. Turbopanzer

    Turbopanzer F1 World Champ

    Oct 2, 2011
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    Honda Interceptor while living in Big D. Those were such fun bikes. Also had a Yamaha FZ 600 and a Suzuki GSXR 1100. Anyone of them will put you in the ground. l do miss the thrill of them. Instant gratification!
     
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  21. Ffre92

    Ffre92 Formula Junior

    May 26, 2014
    595
    NY
    That’s why I love my 981 cayman gts so much. It’s small, light, nimble, with skinny enough tires to get great road feel and some tire squirm in the corners at reasonable speeds. I admit I do get greedy and wish for more torque for takeoffs, but other than that it’s perfect for a daily driver. However, for weekends, can’t compete with that special feeling u get in a ferrari!
     
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  22. Concretecomet

    Concretecomet Karting

    Oct 10, 2021
    95
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I love my 612 and have a great appreciation for what it does. I have had many fast cars, but just the other day I was pushing my 613 hard and it came to me how much I missed my 1953 MG TD. While the torque and explosion of power is thrilling, I always loved the challenge that little MG gave me to maintain momentum and keep it moving through turns. I had been looking into mabey a F12 next but now am leaning towards adding an old bug eyed sprite, they are incredibly light weight and such a fun challenge to make go fast on country roads
     
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  23. Turbopanzer

    Turbopanzer F1 World Champ

    Oct 2, 2011
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    4 Favorites.....Cortina, Capri, Fiesta and 1600 Pinto. All fun toss around cars. Easy to modify. Cheap to own. Stick a Cosworth BDA with rally cams in a Fiesta and go eat a Corvette for lunch!
     
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  24. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    I like my old 12 cylinder siege weapons - BB, TR, Countach, they have all the sound and fury you would expect, provide all the sensory input you would want (sometimes almost a little too much), but at highway speeds they are 'busy' and give the impression of speed. The urge to max them out is tempered by 70s / 80s brakes and tires, but those limits are still far enough out there to be fun. In comparison, new stuff is so anodyne.

    From the bikes mentioned in the discussion (I have had a few of those mentioned and have a vintage Ducati in my entrance hall), I suspect those of us which agree with the original post are not that young. Were Ferrari to cater to that group (simple cars, manual gearbox, etc) it is unsure if they would continue to appeal to the broader demographic. But, perhaps, one model in the range could target us...
     
  25. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 21, 2006
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    We've traveled this road before......... ;)
    How to enjoy Ferrrari ownership without speeding?
    An early, minimal-compootur Miata with a positive-displacement supercharger, upgraded suspension and brakes but original-sized skinny wheels/tires is still at the top of my Fun List.
     
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