V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

Yes, I used the copper spray to get a quasi pressure witness marks to see what was going on. Even light coat, tq,set, wait, remove.. inspect. It was one of those, I wonder if this will work, seems like it should. And it's cheaper then tracking down pressure sensitive pants or papers.

 

Cometic MLS gaskets are pretty strict re flat mating surfaces aren’t they? I would think with just .002 or protrusion it wouldn’t be a huge huge deal, especially if aviation sealant is being used as well.

 

I am using custom made cosmetic composite head gaskets, not MLS. Cometic lists 308 and 250 MLS gaskets so they must work with the protruding liners, but I have a 400i with Testarossa heads and both are modified so neither 400i nor TR head gaskets would work...I maybe could use TR head gaskets if I o-ring or 518 my oil return holes but Cometic doesn't make those anyway so a moot point. To get MLS there is a significant tooling charge before gaskets can be made, or at least that was the case when I first asked 10 or so years ago now. The composite they can cut to order so I just sent a CAD file and out come head gaskets, I have my own part number now.

The composite gaskets are much like the OEM 308 head gaskets, the 400i used the even older material that would bond itself to the heads and block, I'm pretty sure that style gasket requires re-torque where the stuff I bought in not supposed to but kind of did.

 

2V heads are very rigid. He does not have that with TR heads.

 

Yes that's the std for that type of gasket. We did work them to develop a MLS for the protruding liner stock engine. Took a couple versions before getting it right. Not cheap to develop though.
The large bore had it's headaches and the stock one it's own as well. Made for a hairpulling year of R&D.

 

It has the advantage of going on more evenly.

 

That is a possibility. Lets see why they are leaking or at least where.

For a very long time I never felt the need to pressure test Ferrari engines. There just wasn't a need. But when Elring went full on stupid with redesigning their head gaskets I started doing it. If you run it or not is up to you but I'd plan on doing pressure testing as soon as the cooling system is together. Maybe even consider doing it with pistons out and bottom open.

 

Just ordered the TR motor mounts so I can take care of that while the engine is out and make it safe to drive once it goes back in.

The header wrap and a few cans of high temp paint will be here tomorrow. Hopefully that solves the heat problems.

 

Have you found a new place for the coils?
I know, I know... Not that you need to spend more and switch things up..buuuuut what about COP? Or... Fancy big money pencil coils

Cheaper solution, sandwich some ceramic fabric between sheet aluminum plate, and shield the coils. Airflow will suck.

I've got some CFD of the 308 body... As I recall the top of the engine is a low pressure zone, so unless you plate off the bottom with a pan, exhaust heat gets pulled to the top. Back of the 308 is essentially a giant drag chute

 

The plan is 1st wrap the headers and see how it before moving coils. At this point I'm being told I've spent the years car budget so no new coils right now. Plus I personally think 80s car should have plug wires, its just how they look so I may still need to move the coils but I don't see COP in my future.

I did think about a heat shield but think starting at the source and wrapping the headers is the best place to begin.

As for the air flow...tell me you didn't need a CFD to know the air gets sucked up from the bottom and out the back and it was just to tell you fast it was happening? ....because what else could happen?

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With our 750 hp Rodeck powered and the 1300 hp twin hair dryer Ryan Falconer LSR engines header wrap dropped temps in the engine bay tons. Both had sealed up engine bays for drag reduction and with header wrap the heat goes out the pipes. Prior it would melt anything not made of metal.

I'm a big believer in it.

 

Me too. I had it on the 308 blower engine headers, massive difference in the engine bay temp and taught me why the factory headers had the alum skin and insulation...its required!

My race biker then 3089 technique was wrap then hose it down with high temp paint and the wrap looks better, lasts forever, and stops shedding fibers everywhere so that is the plan here.....and hopefully its enough to make the coils happy where they are because I like them where they are.

 

Ah, no I didn't need CFD to tell me that. I was using CFD for development of a belly pan and rear diffuser. What was surprising was just how much the air flow slowed down. Esp a couple feet off the bumper.

I get the 'look' standpoint.

 

Just throwing a question out there, but would ceramic coating the headers work as well as the wrapping of them?


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I have no data to prove it but I doubt it. Sure looks better though. This is the car with the Ryan Falconer engine. The header wrap allows a lot of stuff under the hood to survive.

 

I had the headers on my 429 Aussie Falcon ceramic coated with the “special” coating that supposedly holds the heat inside the exhaust. Cooked my feet every time I drove it.

 

Same on the data. I did some searching and most sites said stuff like "there is no question wrap is much more effective" and that makes sense because .001" insulation, even with 2 layers (inside and out) just isn't going to do what .06-.120" thick insulation can do. The data I did find was apples and oranges....for the wrap they held the engine at peak torque until it got to steady temp....like 1150 at the flange, 750 at the collects then wrapped and got like 900 and 550 again steady temp. For the coating they did a single dyno pull and got like 570 at the flange 1 minute after shut down and with the coating got 260?....so kind or worst case vs best case and that is usually driven by what the manufactured who are actually paying for the article tell them to do.

The bigger data point is I have put my hand on wrapped headers with after a drive and have read others saying the same.....in normally use the headers are no hotter and perhaps cooler than the rest of the engine. I had coated headers on a motorcycle, so lot of air and I promise you couldn't touch them after a ride...at least not without leaving skin behind.....and that is what you'd expect when you have 60-120 times more insulation. Also the wrap people suggest only overlapping by 1/4" to prevent overheating the headers, people do say they had their headers crack after wrapping which is caused by overheating them,.....now have always ignored that and put it double thick everywhere without issue but the point is coating doesn't doesn't overheat headers so you know its not doing as much....but it sure looks better.

 

As you can see I at least double wrapped the headers in the race car. Not worried about cracking. Its got maybe 15 passes on it and its retired. 1st pass broke the record and every 2nd pass put a new number in the books until the 13th when we ventillated it. Sitting on display in retirement with a near new motor in it.

 

Exhaust gas driven high temp corrosion, really depends on the metal of the header. The comments tickled a memory on reading papers about it... Lord only knows where or what book at this point. Probably on line these days.

Coat then wrap to reduce/remove the risk of corrosion, embrittlement etc..

Wraps will provide the air gap that coatings do not. But wraps also trap moisture/salts and on bare metal high temp corrosion can become a problem.

Gold foil, there you go just reflect that heat.

 

Great info, thank y’all for commenting!



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and its out

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Got going removing the un-need O2 bungs, 1 headers done, 3 to go.

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Uh, that looks pretty amazing!!

 

Technical grade poison..... That should be in any gearheads garage!

 

Finished the cutting/welding and got the 1st one wrapped...what a suck job. Once they are wrapped, the plan is to hose them down with high temp paint to help keep it all in place and to stop the nasty little fibers.

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