812 Replacement Rumors | Page 21 | FerrariChat

812 Replacement Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Thecadster, Jun 29, 2021.

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  1. ilcapodizurigo

    ilcapodizurigo Karting

    Oct 16, 2019
    192
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    John Meier
    So Leiters‘ words a couple months back meant nothing? That’ll mean, that the 812Comp and 812CompA will be the last N/A, front mid-engined V12 Berlinetta limited edition...
     
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  2. chet

    chet F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2007
    2,950
    Chicago
    I am late to the party and don't mean to offend but is day355's word completely credible? If so, any 812 is going to be very valuable IMO.

    Again, I am just trying to figure out who has access to the best info.
     
  3. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2006
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    Stickbones Swagglesmith
    I’ve never seen him be wrong in years.
     
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  4. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    Leiters has been fired...that says a lot.
     
  5. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
    6,704
    Yes…@day355 is completely credible.
     
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  6. chet

    chet F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2007
    2,950
    Chicago
    Fair enough and that says a lot. So the 812 is likely to be the final regular production NA V12. Does that mean it won't experience the typical V12 depreciation and that anyone who got one got lucky?
     
  7. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    Apr 2, 2005
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    LaCrinoid
    Chet the new owners will get twice the fun with the regular depreciation plus the new unreliablity factor!! Everyone wins!! LOL :)
     
  8. john Owen

    john Owen Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2018
    444
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    John Owen
    It seems the case that the 812 will indeed be the last of the NA V12s which will ensure its future values. I happen to own one so here is my optimistic and very biased view.
     
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  9. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    which words were those of Leiters you refer?

    I think additional 'special series NA-V12' could still exist at some future time (maybe even in SP4/5?), and maybe offroad only versions (track specials), but, it does seem the current management did not agree with Leiters on enough topics to keep him on staff, he was let go...the new mantra, quieter, cleaner, connected... seems to exclude all history of Ferrari in those 3 words...
     
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  10. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Well, look around, where is the 812 successor, where are its mules...nothing yet, rumor is 2 more years (to a reveal), we will see if that occurs, 2 more years is a very long time to wait for a successor for a car that was discontinued more than a year ago (812SF)
     
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  11. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    My guess is The delay in mules is Ferrari waiting on Euro 7 clarity
     
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  12. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Interesting, I find that the EU is 'behind schedule' with Euro 7 regulations, was due a month ago, now delayed until mid-year. Ferrari's work seems to moving on the next hypercar, or is it? LaF test mules have been seen for some time now...
     
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  13. U-Boat Commander

    U-Boat Commander Formula 3
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    Jun 7, 2008
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    Will Euro 7 impact the next V12? Or will Euro 7 really impact the successor to that car?
     
  14. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Euro 7 have still not been finalized
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    #516 JTSE30, Jan 18, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
    Based on what has been publicized, the Euro 7 regulations are due to come into affect in 2025, and it is now reported that Euro 7 regulations are to be confirmed in April:

    https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20220117_Euro7_polling_final.pdf

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-tech,-development-and-manufacturing/analysis-new-rules-could-make-ice-engines

    If the 812 successor is revealed in 2 years, production would likely begin 6-12 months after, putting it very close 2025 and without a specific derogation reducing Ferrari's need to comply with any new emissions regulations, making it almost a certainty that it must comply...however, what happened? The 812 successor should of already been revealed and "about" to enter production, so some decision was made long ago to delay...so, it may never occur.

    Remember the project name F167 was publicly made known in August 2017...
    https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/2018-ferrari-812-superfast-review-1

    That is an impossibly long gestation period, it seems to me it will not occur at all, or if it does, will continue to be pushed into the future, and, given the new management direction, they have zero motivation to pursue (since theirs is an 'all electric future'), we will see if that successor ever happens, Euro 7 or not...

    Oh, and add to that thought, I think the decision to make the 812GTS (which to me was hastily designed) was made at the same time to delay F167, to me, the 812GTS is a sign that there will be no future V12 regular production, it was Ferrari's last opportunity to make a V12 spider.
     
  16. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula 3

    Oct 3, 2017
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    The Aventador replacement is expected to have a normally aspirated V12 (with hybrid assist).

    Would Ferrari really concede the NA V12 space to VWAG?
     
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  17. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula 3

    Oct 3, 2017
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    It would seem that neither the F8 or GTS were part of the original product roadmap but became necessary to buy time.
     
  18. U-Boat Commander

    U-Boat Commander Formula 3
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    So maybe Ferrari can make toasters for all you Euro guys and big honkin V12s for the rest of us. ;)
     
  19. U-Boat Commander

    U-Boat Commander Formula 3
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    Jun 7, 2008
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    BTW, I don't think the lack of a new V12 is exactly hurting Ferrari right now. Their order books are filled for the next two years. That's why they stopped taking GTS, SF 90 and F8 orders.
     
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  20. leopoldo

    leopoldo Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2013
    655
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    mark1
    … even because most people say that the version equipped with GPF sounds better than the one without
     
  21. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
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    adding to the speculations...

    add in 1500 or so 812c+812CA (999+599+,you know, probably some extras, if for nothing else than crash testing) and another 599 (or so) SP3, that is equal to an entire year's V12 production...(2200 units). So, those plus 812GTS orders (probably another 2000+ pending production...just a guess), but, after those are complete, no more V12 (other than expected hypercar and maybe SP4/SP5...) so there may not be any capacity to add another V12 to production at all until after 2024...so why reveal something now when they have no chance to build it for years into the future...oh wait, there is the SUV to add in, it will apparently include a V12...unless the V12 annual capacity significantly increases from current 2200/year capacity there really is no room in the production line to add another V12 model, by the time all of that production is handled you are looking directly at complying with Euro 7 (i.e. 2025 earliest production)

    The SF90 was always intended to be a limited run, 2000-3000 max units (or so) including the Spider and now, apparently VS SF90 is in the works..

    can't deny the F8 and GTS are both very popular...but the V8 line (SF90/F8) has a much larger capacity, and, 296GTB will be entering production sometime in the next 12 months it seems, but, plenty of V6 production capacity (remember the V6 and V8 are robot assembled, the V12 is hand assembled)

    Really seems there will not be another regular production V12 for at least 4 more years..if ever (as Euro 7 is contorting into an ICE killer, we will find in a few months how it play out, for instance, will there be a carve how for manufacturers with annual production of fewer than 1000 combustion cars built for the EU...that currently exists as a derogation, if it is maintained by Euro 7 I could see how the V12 will live on if it is Ferrari's only combustion engine...and everything else they build is 'pure ev')
     
  22. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    In the race (pun intended, i.e. stock symbol for Ferrari) to full ev car, Ferrari (2025) is currently ahead of Lamborghini (2027), and that's the main focus for Ferrari at the moment...but, if you include 2200 special editions + maybe 2000 more 812GTS (yet to be built), Ferrari has a lot more N.A. V12 production happening than Lamborghini (who averages about 1200 V12s per year).

    Further, Ferrari, from May 2019, has put the V8+turbo+hybrid as the top model for regular production (displacing the V12), years later, Lamborghini has nothing to compete with that. As for a regular production V12+hybrid, Lamborghini looks to reveal in next 12-18 months, maybe that will give Ferrari insights if they want to move that way...not to mention the Euro 7 menace...

    Besides, other than both having a V12, the 812 and Aventador have very little overlap (i.e. design, engine placement, transmission, cabin design, etc)....if you look at that, Ferrari has conceded the regular production rear-mid-engine design to Lamborghini decades ago...

    One last thought, though both displace 6.5L, Lamborghini has not yet equaled the output that Ferrari has, Ferrari has them beat by over 40hp and 1000 rpm on top engine revs ;)
     
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  23. Mickyd329

    Mickyd329 Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2019
    333
    Orange County Socal
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Was at my dealer today to look at my Roma that just came in. He seems to think we might see or hear something soon on the 812 replacement. Who knows, only time will tell I guess.
     
  24. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    He didn't get along well with Vigna who wants full EV only and computers with wheels..

    Marcel Massini
     

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