Michael Masi gets fired/replaced?

So, if your right, Masi can change any rule he wants and do as he pleases yeah? even if its against sporting fairness? and he can exclude and include teams and drivers as he please? am i getting this right?

1. override the fia international code
2. Change any thing.
3. be unfair.
4. dictate race endings.
5. break, rewrite and create new rules on the spot when ever he want with out agreement of the FIA council and teams of the f1 championship?

Is that really what your saying?

 

No, not even close

Please read rule 15.3 again ... the authority given to the Race Director, regarding the "use of the safety car", is quite clear.

I've said nothing more than the stewards have already said, about its meaning and interpretation (the stewards ruling has been quoted several times in this thread ... it is also quite clear).

I would suggest that you also read Andrew Shovlin's quote ... speaking for Mercedes ... about the "intent" or "spirit" of the unlapping rule (also quoted several times in this thread). It was followed, almost word-for-word, by the Race Director at Abu Dhabi.

Finally, please consider the question carefully (so far unanswered): If the problem was that the Race Director "went rogue" and "broke the rules" ... why would the rules themselves need to be changed?

 

While I maintain a legal disagreement with the stewards in that the rules indeed were not correctly followed (and here is where Jeff and I disagree and that's ok), I repeat that even 'if' the power existed to both pull the pace car in early and or only let some of the cars un-lap themselves, the optics of it all are incredibly poor and bring the sport into disrepute. Again assuming it was permitted on a purely technical sense of the rules, the whole thing lacks sporting integrity which is supposed to be the over-riding priority of the race director (along with safety).

Another recent example of this was Spa 2021 which was equally egregious but in that instance 100% by the book. The FIA did the bare minimum to ensure an 'event' so that their butts were covered because their contracts for that event were 'honored'. There was nothing sporting about what took place at Spa and the FIA should be ashamed for what they did.

 

Returning to yesterday's discussions of what could be done differently in the future there are a lot of options that can be learned from North American racing. NASCAR and Indy Car have long used yellow flags as a way of avoiding runaway wins and keeping things 'competitive' to the end. In NASCAR they throw what is called a 'competition yellow' which is literally a yellow flag for no reason other than to bunch the field. This was introduced after years of throwing yellow flags for something as little as a candy bar wrapper on the track to fake a safety situation that would magically bunch the field together. After years of being called out on it NASCAR just wrote into the rules that they can throw a yellow whenever they want to spice up the action. Other things that can be looked at is how the pits are used during yellow flags. In some series the pits are closed which can affect strategy a lot.

In the case of Formula 1 they are very sensitive to the official race distance so adding a laps would require a fundamental shift in how they approach what a Grand Prix is. Just some food for thought.

 

Another good and fair post

If it is decided by all teams, that the existing rules (as currently written) give too much authority to the Race Director ... or, if following the existing rules too closely can sometimes result in outcomes that are considered by "too many" (or "too powerful") to be unusual or even unfair ... then I'm all for a discussion about meaningful changes to the rules

 

Why do you quote Shovlins view? Is he a steward? Does he have authority over the rules? He is no different than team princples talking to stewards. Masi disagreed with him and said that ALL cars should be unlapped. Why do you choose to quote Shovlins view intead of the race directors view?
To answer your question, the rules would need to be changed for better clarity and not not to give the race director a get out of jail free card, if he gets emotional again and "want to see racing". Next time he may "want to see" something totally different. Who knows.
Also 15.3 gives the race director authority over the safety car. But it didn't say anything about unlapping. So since the race director can override this, your view is he can do as he wants right?

 

Consider the fact that unlapping has to do with the safety car only.

 

I know what it says, but the f1 sporting regs, and the FIA international code both says that the rules are set in place for the year and that they can not be changed unless for safety reason ( Masi him self said he changed it for the " SHOW " ), Also i dont care what a teams staff member says he isnt an official of the FIA so it has no relevence to the fact MASI broke ( and He even dissagreed with what Shovlin said any way.... and has said in the past he doesnt have the authority to change the sporting regs.Funny enough, that was when teams complained the safety car took to long because he had to let all thet cars unlap them selfs HAHA funny **** hahahaha...... ) not just the f1 regs, but the fia code also, and for some reason, you think he is allowed, even though the FIA cant even push through sprint races with out the teams permissions but you think Masi can do what the **** he likes...

You for some unknown reason think Masi can change and do all this with out any vote or nothing. going against even the core f1 principles which about it having to be a fair and safe compitition, and that all those representing the FIA, or the teams, have to adhear to these. ( But Masi according to you )
1. override the fia international code ( Which he did as his change was not fair to every driver and team on the track and had nothing to do with safety at all and in his own words was for the " Show " )
2. Change any thing. ( well he changed the f1 sporting regs on a whim for 1 lap )
3. be unfair. ( Which he decision was )
4. dictate race endings. ( Which he did do )
5. break, rewrite and create new rules on the spot when ever he want with out agreement of the FIA council and teams of the f1 championship? ( Which he also did do)

So either you agree or not, it isnt complicated. the only reply i expect back is a simple yes or no reply, i dont want excuses, i dont want what you think is right. and how come all officials stewards, Teams, Drivers, and co have to agree to adhear to the regs when Masi can change them at any moment with out any consutation with any body. Why is it, we still dont know if sprint races will happen next year, how come Masi just dont tell every body on race day one? after all, you claim he can do changed rewrite and do WTF he likes when he likes... So why do they need the team permission if Masi can just do it? How come Masi has more control over the FIA than the fia president? PLEASE TELL ME....

Am asking cause what Masi did, makes all these regs pointless. Ready
f1 Sporting code

1.2 These Sporting Regulations apply to the whole calendar year referred to in the title, and to the
Championship taking place within that calendar year (“the Championship”). Any changes made
by the FIA for safety reasons may come into effect without notice or delay.

2.1 All drivers, Competitors and officials participating in the Championship undertake, on behalf of
themselves, their employees, agents and suppliers, to observe all the provisions as
supplemented or amended of the International Sporting Code (the Code), the Formula One
Technical Regulations (Technical Regulations), the Formula One Financial Regulations (Financial
Regulations) and the present Sporting Regulations together referred to as “the Regulations”.

FIA international code ( Applys to all racing series on which only the fia council is allowed to change, these regs are signed off by all competitors before the championship's start, FE, F2, F2, WEC and so on and so on ( All these racing series have their own racing director BTW and the fia international sporting regs and the f1 regs are fixed until the end of the championship )


1.1.1 The FIA shall be the sole international sporting
authority entitled to make and enforce regulations based
on the fundamental principles of safety and sporting
fairness, for the encouragement and control of automobile
Competitions, and to organise FIA International
Championships


1.2.1 So that the above powers may be exercised in a fair
and equitable manner the FIA has drawn up the
International Sporting Code, which includes all appendices
thereto.

1.2.2 The purpose of the Code is to regulate, encourage
and facilitate motor sport.

1.2.3 It will never be enforced so as to prevent or impede
a Competition or the participation of a Competitor, save
where the FIA concludes that this is necessary for the safe,
fair or orderly conduct of motor sport.

Why is it, when the FIA want to change a reg before the start of a new season needs 8/10 teams need to aprove it before it can go live unless for improvement of safety if the change is with in 1 year.
Why is it, if the changed is planned to go live for longer away than a year period only 5 teams have to agree.
How come Masi can do it when ever he wants even, He can just change it then it dont matter what any body says he is after all above the rules and regs he is the racing god after all.


that race was so bad even Gary Lineker took the piss out of f1...

 

Forgive me for making an obvious observation, but if a sporting event relies on a bunch of legal experts to clarify the validity of what just happened, then something isn’t right..?!

Rules need changing. It’s as simple as that.

I think the reason that the Maxettes get all flustered by this isn’t because of fear of the result being over turned (it won’t be), but by the long term stigma of Max having won the wdc via a flawed process.

The opposite is also true of the Hamboners.

Anyway, I’ve had my say on this topic and as no one who is currently contributing to this thread is likely to change their opinions, I’ll just get my popcorn and enjoy the banter and comedy arguments from the sidelines…! Carry on!

 

I still fail to see the need for unlapping after a safety car period, in general.

A safety car period neutralises a race for safety reason, but why change the order of cars on the track?

 

The race Director has "over-riding authority on the use of the safety car". Full stop. The rule could not possibly be written more clearly.

Masi exercised his authority, explicitly given to him by the rules. There's nothing more to it. Just because Masi's decision resulted in an outcome you don't like, doesn't mean that he acted outside the authority given to him, explicitly, by the rules.

It doesn't mean he changed the rules, doesn't mean he broke the rules, doesn't mean he created new rules. He doesn't get to dictate what the drivers eat for breakfast, simply because he has "over-riding authority on the use of the safety car."

Further, there's another very important "over-ride" recognized by the stewards: 48.13 over-rides 48.12 ... that's a direct quote, from the stewards, and it has nothing to do with Masi.

Some rules over-ride others. Again, there's nothing more to it.


But don't listen to anything I write (i know you won't) ... just ask yourself, why do the stewards recognize Masi's full authority to act as he did? Why did the stewards NOT flag Masi for breaking rules, creating new rules, acting well-beyond his authority, violating everything the FIA stands for, etc etc? If the stewards, as a group, are "equally corrupt" ... why are you ok with the stewards having full power and authority, to change the outcome of each and every F1 race?

 

For clarification ... (fwiw)

Do the rules, as currently written, give the Race Director A LOT of power and authority over the use of the safety car? Hell YES they do!
Can the decisions made by the Race Director impact the outcome of the race? Hell YES they can!

I don't find this particularly odd. The decisions made by the stewards can, and do, impact the outcome of F1 races. The decisions made by each driver ... good or bad ... can, and do, impact the outcome of F1 races. Decisions made by referees can, and do, impact the outcome of any sporting event.

So it's not a sound argument, in my view, that Masi must have acted outside his authority ... simply because his decision impacted the outcome of the race.

 

With great power comes great responsibility.

 

It's incredible how Abu Dhabi has just broken Hamilton, Toto, and all of their supporters.

No one has even once said that Masi has the right to change any rule he wants. That is a clear man of straw you are creating, because you don't actually have a leg stand on against the actual facts of the matter, which are that Masi has overriding authority over the protocol of safety car sessions, a panel of FIA stewards upheld that interpretation of his authority, and no other teams besides Mercedes protested the results, and that Mercedes elected not to go forward with an appeal to the FIA International Court of Appeal.

Riddle me this: why did Mercedes not use their final appeal to the FIA's highest body, if they truly believe they're right? Let me guess "The whole FIA is in on a conspiracy to rob Hamilton!". I thought Hamilton and Wolff were protesting on principle?

This has all been explained to Hamilton supporters time and time, and time, and time again. We get it. You're not ever going to let this go. Lewis has an eighth WDC in your books, Max had a title "handed" to him, Hamilton is the victim of the biggest sporting tragedy of all time, he's a martyr, you're not going to watch F1 ever again. Yes, we heard you all the first billion times.

I said before the race in Abu Dhabi that no matter how he did it, should Max win the WDC, the British press and Hamilton supporters were going to say Hamilton was robbed in some way.

 

Thank you.

 

You think the FIA is gonna admit to any fault? When have they ever done this?
I disagree. I strongly, strongly don't think it would be as many threads or internet articles if Max had won without any rules broken.

 

So you don't find anything odd about Masi declaring that all cars unlap themselves, and SC rules being consisitent for years. And all a sudden Masi throws out his own ruling on the last lap of a championship deciding race? You must see this happen every race?
Would you find it odd if Masi override race rules next race and only let Hamilton maintain speed during a caution to be out front?

 

The rules weren't broken. You can post that they were a billion times and it won't make it so.

Are you new motorsports or something? Every racing sanctioning body that has ever existed give themselves or certain officials broad authority, because racing is a complicated sport, and it's impossible for consistency to always prevail, since each situation is different, and racing is a sport that doesn't give officials time to stop the event and review a play.

Even IF what Masi did was outside of the rules, it would make no difference. Official decisions can't be undone once they're issues. What if RBR protested Jeddah and whether Max was truly supposed to give position to Hamilton? Think the FIA would re-write the results with Max winning if they determined the track stewards made the wrong call? Yeah, no, doesn't work that way in racing. There's no way to get unscrewed. This isn't something new to Hamilton.

The rules weren't broken. Max won the title and Hamilton lost it. It's final. It's over. It's done. Move on for the love of god. This is so sad to watch.

 

What would be the difference in outcome if Masi broke the rules vs override them?

 

Again, thank you!

 

Good lord, man!

You're just gonna argue this forever, aren't you? No matter how many times we explain the same things. We've already explained to you how Masi's authority covered the SC sessions. If you don't like our answers, and still think Ham won an 8th WDC, fine. Believe what you want.

 

Yet, I remember the FIA overturning some results in the past, and some drivers were disqualified on appeal weeks after they won on the track.

It happened the year James Hunt was WDC.

 

None. Zero. Zip.

Officials can overturn a time penalty after a race that was wrongly decided. What they can't do is scrub away a lap that was run and re-write the results.

It's like if they give you black flag to come in for a stop and go penalty, and you're not guilty of the infraction, but you come in and serve the penalty. If after the race the officials admit they made the wrong call, they still can't put you back whenever you were running before the penalty was issued.

That's a unique element to racing. Hamilton is far from the first driver to be victim of it.

 

If you don't like my answers believe what you want. You will NEVER convince me Masi actions were not a farce. Why do you keep saying Masi's has authoruty? How many times do I have to tell you he had authority to break the rules. He did. Oh and did I say Never? I'll say it again NEVER.

 

Let's say that Masi "ordered" Hamilton and Verstappen to switch places, literally, right before the safety car came in. Any reasonable person would probably agree, that Masi "broke the rules" with this move (hypothetical).

Here's the key point, however: just because the "race finished that way anyway" ... does NOT mean that Masi "broke the rules" in the decision that he did make.