What could possibly prevent F1 pump from running(at request, on time) | Page 2 | FerrariChat
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What could possibly prevent F1 pump from running(at request, on time)

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by mahlerfree, Jan 2, 2022.

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  1. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,162
    #26 windsock, Jan 4, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
    First what car are you working on the different models manage pump strategy very different.
    It appear you are working on a 430.
    Areas you may have an issue in are Accumulator generally pump will come on for a very short time after sitting overnight <2seconds and will come on every shift for <2 seconds.
    Ediff solenoid leakage also very common. This will just cause excessive pump cycling times and if the pump on time gets over 20% the TCU will turn the pump off in order to prevent overheating. This can most easily be reproduced by driving the car and quickly shifting from 3 to 5 and then back down to 3 several times. If you have excessive pump duty cycle it will quickly turn off the pump and you will not be able to shift. 8% duty cycle or less is the specification for a normal system. I would recommend Ferrari bulletin FNA-75B
    Lastly if you do not have enough pressure to complete the self learn then you may have a bad accumulator or loose bleed screws on the actuator.
    Be very careful with your diagnosis of the F1 relay control circuit as it is one of the few power side switching circuits and any short to ground will likely damage the driver in the TCU.
     
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  2. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #27 flash32, Jan 4, 2022
    Pretty much what I said in post 4

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  3. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #28 mahlerfree, Jan 4, 2022
    in post #4, you said "No matter how fast you shift, the pump should stop ..if it doesn't stop ..you are losing pressure quick (think loose screws on actuator or a bad solenoid ) or a bad accumulator ( not enough reserve)"

    In the healthy car video, the pump doens't stop, thus , according to you ,is loosing presure too quick. That is incorrect because it is the un-healthy car that is loosing pressure too quickly.

    I.E. in a healthy car, the pump should not stop running if I shift fast enough. We seem to differ on this from the very beginning.




     
  4. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #29 mahlerfree, Jan 4, 2022
    the unhealthy car is a transplanted 360 ( to CS spec, thus they share the same F1 components and doens't have an E-diff).
    The "20%" and "8%" helps a lot. Are these numbers written in the TCU logics or they are just general figures out of experience?

    It is a fact that I cannot complete self-learn ( and the other 360 can) because of not enough pressure. Since I was using the healthy 360's accumulator, that would leave to loose screws at the actuator. Since I don't have any red leak underneath the actuator, the loose screw theory is unlikely ------ALTHOUGHT i'll check tonight.
    I'd probably just switch my actuator with my cousin's.


     
  5. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    #30 flash32, Jan 4, 2022
    I have never heard of a pump running continuous ..even in self learning mode . It should stop even for a few seconds ..the pressure is dropping too fast ..again screws or accumulator.. this is for a stock 360 or 430

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  6. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #31 flash32, Jan 4, 2022
    Loose screws doesn't create leaks(unless falling out ).they are bypass screws which allow pressure /fluid to go into the return line back to reservoir

    I had offered a phone call to avoid this back and forth ..

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  7. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #32 mahlerfree, Jan 4, 2022
    I see what u mean, I could have a loose screw in this case.
    I am not in the US so I was little relunctant. Hope you understand.

    Another probability I was thinking is the solenoids being leaking too much for each of its activation.


     
  8. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #33 flash32, Jan 4, 2022
    Yes i mentioned that in post 4 as well ... Unfortunately the only leak rate you will get in a diag tool is the clutch one

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  9. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #34 flash32, Jan 4, 2022
    if you have a leaky "off" solenoid you can see that on a graph of pressure
    if you have a leaky "on" solenoid you may be able to isolate it using the graph function ( pressure) of a tool when you shift in to different gears unstanding that some gear require move folks to move so you would have to account for that
     
  10. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    20,043
    The Cold North
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    #35 tbakowsky, Jan 4, 2022
    This is seriously bad advice. The pumps job is to charge the accumulator..that's it. The accumulator is what provides the system pressure. If the accumulator is bad, the pump will run far more often then it should. You should be able to shift gears at minimum 3 times before the pump kicks in to recharge the accumulator.
     
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  11. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #36 flash32, Jan 4, 2022
    Thank you !

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  12. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #37 mahlerfree, Jan 28, 2022
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    ok, so I
    1. removed both rear wheels
    2 removed both mud cover behind the rear wheels （4 screws each side)
    3. remove the big nuts securing the rear bumper ( euro version, so 2 nuts per side, US version is 4 nuts per side)
    4. removed the 8x screws and 2x bolts the connect the rear bumper with the floor pan and car body.
    5. removed rear bumper.
    6. removed the exhaust silicencer ( 430/CS style, not 360 style. bunch of nuts and bolts)
    7. loosened one of the nuts that connect the RH cat and the RH exhaust manifold
    8. slided the RH cat towards the right a little bit, maybe 2 inches
    9. removed the heat shield that covers the f1 actuator ( 4x 6mm nuts)
    10. remove the bracket that holds the actuator hoses ( 2x 10mm nuts)
    11. removed 8x 7mm nuts and 2x 13mm nuts that secure the actuator to the gearbox.
    12. removed the actuator ( with a big screw driver leveraging it against the gearbox body.)

    And I found that the each of the 3 screws can be tightened for a quarter turn.

    And I re-installed everything except the rear bumper and found that, for the first time in my life, I can complete a self-learn on this car.
    I still can't make the pump runs forever like my friend's healthy car but the fact I completed a self-learn boosted my confidence that there will be no gearbox error lights when downshifting for 4 consecutive times.

    I'll have to install the rear bumper for a test drive tomorrow.
     
  13. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #38 flash32, Jan 28, 2022
    Nice write up

    While you had the accuator out and screws loose did you do a bleed of the actuator ...that would be a n easy task ..one push button since you had all out ..

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  14. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #39 mahlerfree, Jan 28, 2022
    The FSM says to unscrew it by 2 turns.
    Question is , should fluid come out of the ports when bleeding?

     
  15. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #40 flash32, Jan 28, 2022
    No ..it is a bypass ..you turn the screws and internally fluid will flow back to tank.. initiate the launch actuator bleed and it will run its course and be done

    Have fresh fluid in reservoir so fresh fluid will be pushed into actuator

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  16. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #41 mahlerfree, Jan 29, 2022
    so after the SD2 tells me bleeding is done, I just tighten the screws and not to worry that some air will get into the loose screw holes?

     
  17. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #42 flash32, Jan 29, 2022
    Correct

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  18. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #43 mahlerfree, Jan 29, 2022
    do I loosen the three screws altogether or I need to loosen one and bleed , loosen another one, bleed again, and again?
     
  19. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    #44 flash32, Jan 29, 2022
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  20. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #45 mahlerfree, Jan 29, 2022
    just did.
    And my fluid tank's level went up.
    tightened the screws, all done.
    need to install everthig back to test drive.


     
  21. mahlerfree

    mahlerfree Karting

    Dec 19, 2019
    240
    #46 mahlerfree, Jan 31, 2022
    so , I drove up to 55mph and did a fairly near-abs brake and downshift from 6-1.
    voila, no gearbox indicator light.
     
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