V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

So glad it’s all coming together Mark, well done.

 

Thing sounds just the business Mark. Amazing

 

I showed my wife your car with the latest start-up video, and thought the blue was spectacular. Then she asked what number your car was, I said “a 308 like ours.” She replied, “Oh, does it break down as often as ours?” She equates downed maintenance and projects with stuff is broken.

 

Yeah, its a project not a car I guess

I pulled the plugs to clean them yesterday and was feeling pretty good until the very last one, #6, came out ghost white but also bone dry
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6 was the worst of the coolant leakers, so it often came out white but also wet so this is odd and gives me cautious optimism.

Yesterday I confirmed spark and could also see the injector spraying during cranking and it appeared the same as the others....but then why a dry white plug?"

The ECU is doing something weird. There is a "stop" mode where the key is on and the laptop connected you hit stop and that leaves the laptop connection but stop the program from running and all outputs so you can make changes. Its always worked just fine but Sunday it didn't....stop caused a relay to start buzzing and the throttle actuator didn't turn off. Yesterday I had to reset power to the ECU to do the fuel and spark tests after I saw nothing and realized I wasn[t hearing the fuel pump prime so something is causing to to have fits. This will need to get sorted before I can trust any ECU outputs I think, hence my cautious optimism.

And I did confirm the coolant sensor was left unplugged so that explains the black plugs.

 

I had an ECU once that was causing all kinds of issues, sure the thing was reporting all was good, test actuating worked as it should. Running though was the problem, had to bust out the old O'scope and squid. Chucked the ECU in the bin and grabbed a new one... Ahhh... Running and tuning in an HR after that.

Not to say that's exactly your issue, but sometimes these electronic magic boxes cause one to run in circles.

Noid lights are handy for running tests to see if injectors are firing. Fluke meter with current loop works too if you've got the sensitive one. I'm sure you'll figure it out, chasing electrons is always so much fun

 

Wiring shorts, unplugged leads, etc... How do you have the ECU setup for that? The ECU series we use I have a low/high threshold setup that alerts with a fault code for either over voltage or open, then it'll set a default setting for 'limp mode' if it's critical. Can you do something like that?
The above requires digging up voltage& resistance curves for operating ranges, always fun for some sensors.

 

I can do literally anything I please, I just have to actually do it.

I have a few fault checks setup but not a lot, oil pressure lights the malfunction light, I forget what else. Inputs are easy as they have expected ranges but I don't have a good way to monitor outputs like a coil or injector faults. The newer unit might have spi drivers with fault defection, I"m not sure, but with mine I'd need to tie the driver to an AN input I think and I've already used most of them.

I'm hoping to find a pinched wire shorting something so I don't need to explain a $1000-$1800 unplanned expense for a replacement ECU

The important part though is that it doesn't LOOK like there is anything wrong wit the engine itself.

 

Ok, the driver in the ECU was dead, I sacrificed the oil temp light to get a replacement and they all run now. The last blip is 9k just because....then it ran out of gas.

 

Nice! Sounds great!
Now to secure a loan for the fuel that beast will need

 

Yeah....I think I put 10 gals in when I started testing, no idea where it went but its gone.

 

Spectacular!!!

 

And this. You see it?

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NOTHING on the floor.

 

Whaaaa?
I spy an oil spot and a washer

Looks good! But how will you know when it needs oil?

 

It needs oil when the oil pressure light come on like every other car I own

 

Outstanding stuff Mark. How much oil that thing take?

 

14 quarts seems to get the tank level about right

 

Ok...I need to admit failure on multiple fronts. It looks like 6, 7, 12 are for sure leaking, the WBO2 sensors are giving me BS numbers, a couple drops of oil on the floor, and possibly coolant temp still. Time for a drink.......
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gahhhh! have that drink.... sorry to hear it

 

After sleeping on it the though this morning is copper head gaskets. My current thinking the problem here is that the end cylinders are not supported the same as the inner cylinders which is why the factory composite head gaskets had metal reinforcing on the ends to limit completion in that area which sees about double the force the between cylinders area sees and is no doubt distorting something leading to failure.

Scott's using MLS gasket+sealant and having success because MLS is not compressible my thinking goes. They have sealing ridges that act like a spring and a very thin rubber coating to make a seal....but that hasn't been working either, my guess is a bit of the same issue I have....the uneven clamping forces cause just a little too much distortion. So add sealant to the basically incompressible gasket and success.....doesn't seem much different than a much cheaper to 1 off copper gasket+ sealant.

I'm also pondering less torque on the end studs.......

 

Interesting...
I'm not fond of copper gaskets on blocks with floating liners, flat deck sure, but I'd still add a firing ring if possible.( Ferrari design is that deck surface is a water jacket... That's just begging for leaks. The OEM gaskets were composite profiled, now they no longer are, and thus began the head gasket issues. And my quest for a gasket that doesn't leak.)

There's too much micro movement going on that work hardens the copper and then you get leaks. In my opinion/view.

The MLS does utilize "spring" embossment that helps, though getting the profile correct was a bit of PITA due to the movement of the liners and block thru operating temps etc... And that's where the sealant makes damn sure it doesn't leak.

I also don't like just how flexi flyer the blocks and heads are, it's nuts. We had a block that the moment you tq'd the heads on the main journals went out of whack...ugh.. had a 328 that I needed to reem the cam journals after the block was mounted to the gearbox, was good on the bench till that point, then bam. Wet noodle castings, thin castings, who knows. The fun of hand built specialty engines.

Head gaskets are a right PITA, I worked with half a dozen different mfg, they all agreed that Ferraris choice of design makes it a real challenge. Cometic was the only one to keep working with us on it. One company made fantastic composite gaskets, silicone coated etc... Oh except that they literally dissolved in the presence of coolant... That was an expensive R&D test. Not really anyone's fault per say, they specialized in race engines that run straight water... Sooo yeah, fun times.

Decade plus ago there was a big nasty lawsuit involving a couple shops an F40 and copper head gaskets. Nothing but trouble those things.

It's copper your only choice?

 

Composite which I'm 0-3 on or copper is it so I'm thinking the choice is may not work vs certainly doesn't work and copper it up to the plate.

 

Why not have new composite head gasket made but with flat metal strips about the thickness of the gasket and maybe 1/4” wide on the sides of the gasket. Elring 308 head gaskets have these to help with this very issue.

 

I think you're at this point, yeah it sucks but if you're going back to tearing it down then I think it's worth checking the pressure/contact area.

https://www.felpro.com/technical/tecblogs/fujifilm-lets-you-see-the-pressure.html

https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/business/industrial-materials/measurement-film/prescale

 

yes, the question would be how exactly. the amount of shim has got to depend on the specific gasket material I'd think?

Anyway, the copper gaskets are bought and should be here by the end of the month. In the mean time I guess the discussion is what will I slather them with in an attempt seal them? I guess aviation sealant again but the spray copper coating and I guess RTV are also options.

 

Copper gaskets 'suuuuuuuck' at sealing, some mfg use a silicone coating to help if there's no recommended "O" ring block& heads.
If the gaskets are plain copper, look at some type of silicone rubber coating, hopefully there's a spray on type, or 'dip'.