Pista Replacement!!?? | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Pista Replacement!!??

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by hanz, Apr 13, 2022.

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  1. Wikdstrate

    Wikdstrate Formula Junior
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    You sure about that? :rolleyes:

    https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife

    992 GT3 did a 6:55 lap
    Pista did a 7:00 lap
    720S did a 7:08 lap

    I am what you call a "track rat." I've done 10's of thousands of miles on track and I have seen almost every car on track and know what they're capable of. You should give the Porsche GT cars more credit because they've earned it.

    Also, Porsche Cup Cars absolutely dominate Ferrari Challenge cars in their respective classes. It's not even close.
     
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  2. Wikdstrate

    Wikdstrate Formula Junior
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    If you want to compare a Pista/720S against a Porsche with equal hp and a comparable MSRP then you need to compare them against the GT2 RS and the gap gets even wider. :)

    I don't mean to bash Ferrari's. They are wonderful cars but the are not about having the best performance/reliability/durability. Porsche has that sewn up. It's been that way for a long time.

    Ferrari has great history and a sense of occasion. I loved my Scuderia but I couldn't come within 2 seconds of my lap time with my C6 ZO6 or my 991.2 GT3. Ran them all with equal rubber (Hoosier R7's), they all had 500hp, and ran them on the same day at the same track.
     
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  3. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    different drivers, different days.

    I own/owned all three cars that you posted. As I stated GT3 is a great fun car but lacks power compared to the others. GT3 is a fun car but I enjoy driving the Pista and 720 much more.
     
  4. Wikdstrate

    Wikdstrate Formula Junior
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    I commend you on having worked hard enough and on being successful enough to own all three of these vehicles. I would very much like to own all of these cars...I'm not in that position...yet.

    I have to admit that I sold my GT3 in search of a more visceral car (Wolf GB08). Porsches are amazing vehicles and "punch way above their weight" but I totally get why people prefer other makes with more personality.
     
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  5. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    I am by no means knocking the Porsche. As Ive stated multiple times - its an amazing car. It is however in a different league when you compare it to the Pista which has over 200 hp more. Im sorry- you just feel it. Comparing ring times when its a known fact that Porsche goes all out on the ring and adjusts the cars accordingly to get the best times and then compare that to a Pista which has no factory support to run on the ring is meaning less. Drive a Pista and drive a GT3. Your butt dyno will tell you there is no comparison in power.

    Does that make the GT3 a less of a car? no. The manual transmission is sublime and a ton of fun. But you dont get that neck snapping speed rush that you do when you hit the gas on the Pista. They are just different cars and should not be put into the same comparison.
     
  6. dustman

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    Prices went to stupid +1 just as I went to shop. I see no reason to acquire at these levels, happily wait for the drop. I picked up another Huracan Spyder in the meantime and am reminded what a great driver it is vs the SVJ. But I still want one!

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  7. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Right now it is very hard to compare the 992 GT3 time and times set a few years ago by cars like the 991.2 GT3RS, Pista and other cars. The track has seen massive improvements over the past three years, it is MUCH faster now than it ever was. I'll be running my 992 GT3, GTR and Pista there back to back in a few weeks, and that will be what tells me what's what. If you set up a Pista with Cut 2 R tyres, an equally aggressive alignment and track pads, I have a VERY hard time seeing the GT3 hanging on. Also, quite few run the Cup 2 R shoes as they make little sense for most. The Cup 2 R fitted to the GT3 was designed for that lap. They are so short lasting that they actually start to fall off before the lap is done. A GT3 with regular Cup 2 shoes is nowhere near as fast as the car with R boots and the track specific setup as per the owners manual. Mind you, these are not just my words, but also the words of Lars Kern. I know some GT3 owners would love to think of their car as this magical 510 hp mystery machine that trumps everything, but reality is, it isn't. It's a great car, and it is bloody fast for the power, but there are several exotics right now that will beat it on most tracks. Not knocking it, love my Touring, just calling it as I see it.

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  8. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Sure, we can do that. Christian Gebhardt ran the Pista and 2RS, both on Cup 2 R shoes. There were less than 2 seconds separating them. It was done between 12 months, so conditions might be the reason why it turned out that way. There are tracks like Hockenheim, Dunsfold and Spa where the Pista has a faster lap. The two Ring times set by Gebhardt are quite telling, and so are the times set by Porsche and Lars Kern. Let me ask you this. Do you think that Pista would run a 7.00 minute lap if Ferrari sent the gang from AF Corse and DiSimone out to the Ring for a few days? Neither do I.

    I run the Ring and understand it. I also understand that Ring laps should be taken with a grain of salt. Unless you have factory teams there competing, it is impossible to really compare the times, especially because the track is so long.

    Also, the fact that a guy totalled his Challenge to run faster than your Z06 has little bearing on the capabilities of either car. I don't care what you do to a 2007 Z06, if the driver knows what he is doing, there is no way in hell it will beat a 458 Challenge. There's a difference between driver skill and a cars performance. This was the driver, not the car.

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  9. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Two very good posts from someone that actually owns the car in question.
     
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  10. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    I would also touch upon another thing you said, and that has to do with reliability, ability and durability. Over the past 5 years I have had fewer issues with Ferraris than Porsches. Ferrari understands something that Porsche seem to have forgotten at the moment, and that is what goes into a properly fast road car. What I mean is that the current GT3 is set up harder than the former RS, and that's nk bueno for fast road use. Why? Because the car gets nervous and unsettled. This is something Ferrari seems to master better than anyone. If there's one thing you can say about Ferrari, it is that their current range of cars were made to be driven, a lot and hard. I hate to say this, but if you haven't lived with them, how will you understand? If you think Porsche durability and QC is on the level people remember from the 993 era, you are sorely mistaken. Not saying they are not reliable, but a 992 feels far from as solid as Porsches of yesteryear. I'm aware that this is somewhat sensitive to some, and I do like my gated Touring very much, but I don't feel it is the same quality product a 911 used to be.

    Fact is that you make a lot of assumptions. You don't own or drhve any of the cars in question, and yet you speak in absolute terms about them. I don't mind you sharing your personal opinions and assumptions, but they are just that. You cannot pass them off as factual, plane and simple.

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  11. Wikdstrate

    Wikdstrate Formula Junior
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    I think you have completely missed the point of these last few posts. It was said that a GT3 and a Pista are "in different leagues" and "should not be compared." This is simply not the case. As of right now, the 992 GT3 has a faster Ring time than a Pista. It really makes no difference if the Ferrari factory team shows-up and can get another second or two out of a Pista. The point is that a GT3 is extremely competitive with a Pista when overall performance is considered. To say a GT3 is not in the same league as a Pista is simply an inaccurate statement.

    My other point is that yes, a Pista has a ton more hp than a GT3. That's great, but it doesn't mean much given that absolute acceleration is a very small component of the actual performance of a vehicle. If this were not the case than a Tesla Plaid would have all of the lap records. If you can afford a Pista and like to feel the acceleration on your way to a Cars & Coffee event that's great, but you can only responsibly (and legally) do that in the first two gears. If you actually want to experience what a car can do and drive the car at the limit you must go to a track. My students at the track most often times finish a session with me and say "I had no idea my car was capable of that."

    Most folks do not (and cannot) drive these cars at the limit. I can (and do) because I am constantly at the track and continuously work on my driving. It's very easy to use launch control on the street and simply let electronics take over and say, "Wow! This Pista is so much faster than my GT3" when in reality, the capabilities of the cars are almost identical.
     
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  12. Wikdstrate

    Wikdstrate Formula Junior
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    That's unfortunate to hear about your anecdotal experience with your Ferrari's and Porsches. I have NOT had the same experience.

    I do not own a Pista or a 992 GT3 but I DID own a 430 Scuderia and a 991.2 GT3. I also am very close with my local race shop that services Cup Cars and Challenge Cars. They also service a lot of GT3's and 360'/430'/458's/488's...etc. and they say it's blatantly obvious how much more prepared a stock GT3 is out of the showroom that a stock mid engine Ferrari. I hold their opinion much higher than someone that simply owns a few cars and may have outlier/anecdotal experiences with their few cars.

    I also noticed this when I took both of my cars to Le Circuit Mont Tremblant. I ran both cars on the same day with equal rubber. Same driver, same track conditions, same everything. Had a blast in both cars but I went through an entire set of front brake pads in the Scud in just the morning session of the first day. It wasn't a huge deal because I expected this and brought spares, but it was obvious that the GT3 had much better brake cooling and was just more set-up from the factory to run laps at 10/10's.
     
  13. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Before you question my abilities to judge what a car can do, I can run a Pista around the Ring below 7:18 ON REGULAR Cup 2 boots. The margin on that track between those and R version is pretty massive. I'm guessing I'm good for 7:07-7:05 or so for me. I'm not a pro but I know I can hold my own.

    You haven't even tracked it, so what is your point if reference?

    You say that a Ferrari factory team could perhaps pull 2 seconds more compared to Gebhardt showing up for one day with a bunch of journalists.
    . I'm sorry for being blunt, but are you out of your mind? Look at the difference Porsche ran the GT2RS at vs. Sport Auto. What in the world would make you think Ferrari cannot do the same? If you think they can't you clearly don't know the Pista and you don't know AF Corse.

    I SPECIFICALLY brought up the data points of the Sport Auto test between the GT2RS and Pista. There was,no track revisions between 2017 and 2018, and it was the same damn driver!

    Now as for the 992 GT3 time, you completely fail to address the track revisions. Do you seriously think two cars with the same weight, power, driver, tyres etc. would perform so radically different just because of double wishbone suspension? Good grief man, not even close. If you can't take my words for that, at least listen to Kern.

    Now Pista and,GT3 in the same class and same speed? I don't know what to say. The damn thing will struggle to accelerate faster than a 13 year old 458! They are NOT in the same class, not even remotely close. I don't care how you look at it. Performance, speed, weight, price. None of it is the same. If you want to see what the GT3 will do compared to a GT3RS which is MUCH slower than a Pista, just go where some of the Porsche Cup guys run their street cars and watch them duke it out. They are very close, almost equal. That's reality.

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  14. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    #114 Il Co-Pilota, Apr 21, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2022
    Anecdotal experiences with my few cars? Okay, Ivcan play that game.

    That's from a guy who USED to own a Scud and GT3RS. Seeing that you now own a 2007 Z06, and I'm the guy running the cars in question, which one of us is doing something right?

    A few outlining experiences lol, right. You'd probably be a bit more humble if you knew my experience level and what I own.
    Could you at the very least not lecture me on the Ring and significance of ring times till AFTER you have driven your first lap there? Great!

    Factory setups? What does that matter. Two things. 1. The Porsche crowd spends just as much time dialling in their track cars as those of us who are serious about tracking Ferraris. Furthermore let me point something out to you, which you also glaze over. Ferrari set up their cars for the road, because they sell ROAD cars. The GT3RS we both used to own, was a pretty terrible street car. 2. I am definitely one of the most outspoken here on these boards when it comes Ferraris, shall we say, less than stellar factory set ups. But one thing Ferrari understands is that most cars need to be good on the roads, and that goes for both an F8 and Pista. You then have the option to dial it in to your liking. Now the problem with the current GT3 which is the shall we say, street focused version of the upcoming RS, is not almost as bad as the previous RS in this regard. Unlike the previous GT3 and Ferraris, you'd need to dial it back to make it as good on the street as the GT3 used to be - and that is a lot harder than turning everything up. Now who is doing something right? Not Porsche. The 991.2 non-RS car was a great canyon carver that did well on track - which is also what Ferrari aims at. Then like the Ferrari, you could dial itvin to your needs. With the new GT3 they have skipped the GT3 and gone straight to kill mode, which was never what the GT3 was about. Had you more experience, you'd understand all of this and why they are not set up the same.

    Do you think I would share alignments, put Surface Transforms rotors on a Pista and so on, if I was not aware or serious about tracking? Would I race actual race cars or track at least 15 days per month if I was a 3 trackdays-per-year know nothing fink? I suspect that I track more hours in a month than you do in a year if I include test days and training. A bold statement, but if you flap your trap as much about your time spent on track as you do about second-hand experience, I'm guessing that you are grossly exaggerating.

    You don't know what you're talking about and all you have is second hand info.

    It's been swell, but the swelling's gone down. Enjoy your Chevy.


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  15. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    This was the point I was trying to make earlier. You hit the gas on the. GT3 and its like - yeah man, awesome, its fast, the NA engine sounds great.

    You hit the gas on the Pista and its holy ****! I need new underwear.

    The two cars in question are not in the same league. Its not even the same sport.

    Porsche makes a great car but Porsche is a step below. A real world review from an actual owner.
     
  16. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Your GT3 is awesome looking. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

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  17. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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  18. Wikdstrate

    Wikdstrate Formula Junior
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    You seem really fragile so I'll go easy on you. You have no idea who you are talking to.

    What series do you race in? SCCA, NASA, LMGTE, IMSA, LMP1/2?
    Do you instruct?
    How many miles on track have you driven? I have over 20,000 miles on track.
    Have you been privately coached by an LMP1 winning driver?
    Have you ever raced an open wheel race car?
    I assume you've been multiple Corse Clienti event(s)?

    I don't have a Chevy. I bought that car 16 years ago and turned it into a race car by investing over $250K into...and yes, it was every bit as fast as a 458 Challenge Car with the mod's that I put into it.

    Most of the guys at the FCA events had an attitude (much like the one you are displaying) and just couldn't fathom how a guy in a Chevy could be faster than them in their beloved 458 Challenge Cars. They would refuse to point me bye (in the HPDE's) so I would get behind them and ride their bumper until they "ran out of talent" and smashed into the wall out-driving both their skill level and their car's capability. It's happened more than once but guys with more money than brains don't seem to be able to check their ego. Guys with lots of cash and ego's that are used to always "winning." Their attitudes/ego really affected their judgement to the point where they were unsafe on track. One guy that brought a McLaren F1 almost caused a 10 car pile-up because he was driving so far off pace and refused to let cars by him. He was politely invited never to come back. I tried to speak with him in the paddock but his outrageous arrogance made his interactions with us extremely awkward. I actually felt bad for the guy. Very sad.

    I no longer track street cars (or modify them for the track) because you end up with a severely comprised car that's no fun on the street and one that is not as fast (or safe) as a dedicated race car. This is also why I don't have a 992 GT3. That car makes no sense to me. There's no place in my life for these cars. If I'm on the street I want a refined, luxurious car. If I'm on the track I want to be in a race car, preferably with lots of aero.

    I've raced open wheel cars for the past 3 years that are capable of 3.5 G's of lateral acceleration. "Tin tops' don't impress me anymore. That's why I sold my GT3. It felt like I was driving a school bus compared to an open wheel race car.

    My next track car will be a Wolf GB08, much more visceral than any Ferrari or Porsche and it'll embarrass Cup and Challenge Cars on track. The Wolf will put 5 seconds/lap on a GT3 Cup Car on a 2 minute course. The problem with the Wolf is that it'll be way too fast for track days. Closing speeds on guys in Pista's/GT3's/Cup Cars/Challenge Cars will be unsafe so I have to find a suitable racing series once my little ones are in college.
     
  19. italiafan

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  20. DavisJ

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    i love this discussion - from people in the know. thank goodness we dont have folks trying to throw in some lambo or bmw/benz into this mix.
     
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  21. DQSF

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    Wow love your GT3 spec. Can you share some more pics here or on another thread?
     
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  22. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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  23. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Yep. Thank you:)
     
  24. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Yeah, I know right. Felt like being a real thrill seeker.:D
     
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  25. Brembo241

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    Guess you will remain curious.
     

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