812 Replacement Rumors

I don't think Ferrari would launch such a car now and that's a sad thing

I'm just saying the speed argument now, more than in any other time in history, matters less - not more IMO. But Ferrari and other manufacturers don't seem to care (see HP wars, 0-60 sub3 and lap times at the expense of size, weight and generating emotive feelings). All cars are fast now, too fast, it's easy to get speed whether hybrid or full electric or turbo from just about anyone these days. Speed limits have not increased, roads have not widened or cleared out, autobahns have not opened up. How fast do you need 0-60, or 1000 HP, and for what point? I'd rather get a 4.5 second 0-60 screaming Ferrari like the F430 in a modern, light, analog package that I can spec to my taste new with warranty than the 296 with 900HP plug-in heavy hybrid going 0-60 in 3 seconds. If 296 was V6 turbo with less power and less weight (ala MC20) I'd be interested, if 296 was V6 NA or inline 6 NA, or V8 NA I'd be even more so, no matter how much slower it might be! YMMV!

 

What you have to understand is that current performance levels are too high for open roads!
It is simply unusable because too powerful!
And none of the road Ferraris are intended for intense track racing, at most track days, which is already very good, because for racing there are racing cars.
What you quote therefore becomes only active marketing aimed at flattering egocentrism, nothing more.
I can confirm that the cars that are measured by the magazines are not quite standard. Ask Chris Harris what he thinks about it, because for having said it aloud, he was punished by Ferrari !
And if you want to know, I'd rather ride a challenge stradale than an SF 90 or an F 40 than an LF.
I don't care about power, I want the pleasure of the senses and emotion, not an unusable fighter plane !

 

I would order a lighter non hybrid 296 in a heartbeat. Since that is the GT3 race car strategy to satisfy the rule book, I’m holding out hope Ferrari builds a street version. 600hp, sub 2800lbs, perfect!

 

The Porsche GT4RS will go down as a Top 20 all time sports car. The list of cars, modern or otherwise, that are both quicker and faster is rather lengthy. It’s not just about speed. We’ve reached the point where more speed is largely irrelevant. so many things are so much more important.

Now if it had the right number of pedals, it’d be a Top 10


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I totally get what you are saying, but if Ferrari lost the power-speed war, they would have been relegated to the 2nd tier league. The new 400 HP Lotus Emira costs £60k over here. How could Ferrari justify the £240k price tag, if they too offered just 400 CV? A hot hatch has that much power nowadays... What would be the selling point of a Ferrari then? People would just buy a Lotus or a Cayman instead. Ferraris are top tier supercars and they have to compete with their peers.

One could argue that even a Golf R is too fast for road use these days. Should all sportscars be limited to 300 CV then?
I agree that a 700-800-1000 HP car is night on ridiculous, but if the handling matches the power, why not?
CH never accused Ferrari of cheating. What he said is that they send their tech crews and minders too, optimising the car and looking over your shoulder, which he didn't like. McLaren do the same, as do most car makers. Customer Ferraris have been proved to be just as quick.
Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. Just don't expect others to share it. The F40 for me was a case of "don't ever meet your heroes". I find newer cars much more usable, because their power can be exploited, due to current technology.

 

It’s the never ending debate… when will technology surpass our human limitations. One could argue they have already done so. And more importantly what do we do next.
Do we want every (electric) road car with 1000hp+ in the hands of everyone with a drivers license? Since the Plaid already has those kind of hp numbers where do we go next? Will manufacturers simply say “ enough is enough?” I’ guessing we all know the answer. If Lambo has 2000hp then Ferrari needs to have 2001hp and so it continues. But we will hit a wall at some stage….. and what do we do then…..?
Perhaps that’s the time when analogue cars fueled by synthetic fuels will be even more coveted

 

I agree that modern supercars are too powerful for the road, although one could argue 500hp is also excessive. That said, there are occasions where one can find a quiet road to safely explore the acceleration these things are capable of. I personally find hard pulls from 2nd gear in some cars to be a serious adrenaline rush. I was spinning wheels into 4th gear in one of my rides this weekend. Madness. Addictive even.

 

To quote the immortal words of the late great Colin Chapman. '' Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere. ''
This is what worries me most on all the current and future Hybrid/ Electric Ferraris and why I love the 360CS so much. The 812 replacement won't be of any interest to me if its heavier than the 812SF which I'll keep until the oil runs out.

 

Last weekend, during the morning practice break of the European GT open at Estoril circuit, the organization invited a group of Ferrari owners to visit the paddock and use the track for two hours. As it was a very hot day with the asphalt temperature reaching 40ºC, the grip was good and the experience very rewarding. Although most of the Ferraris present were 488 Pista there were several SF90 one 812 SF and also my already old F12 Berlinetta.
While on the track and when trying to get an acceptable time in a circuit I know, I followed an SF90 for several laps. While I had the mannetino lever in CT off and was enjoying a somewhat “electrifying” experience, as in the many tight corners of the circuit I fought every second not to lose control and destroy the car, the SF 90 in front of me passed them lap after lap obediently as if it were on rails. . Then, when it reached the home straight, it delivered its brutal acceleration, moving away, so I could only approach after the first corner and for that I had to brake at the very limit.
When I left the circuit I felt all the adrenaline due to what was a very rewarding driving experience that ended well. As I have never driven an SF 90 I have been wondering what kind of experience it will give on the track.

 

shorter than a 812

 

That is good news !

 

That sounds interesting, unless the engine is smaller, what is removed? The rear trunk space? The 'back shelf'? Very curious given the SP3 is longer than the 812 (by about 1 inch, about 25mm)

Hopefully the wheelbase is also shorter, would save weight and complexity by eliminating the rear-steering mechanisms, no need for a virtual short wheelbase if it is actually shorter!

But, being shorter almost seems impossible unless the engine size is reduced...

 

Hack some off the trunk as its oversized and shorten the wheelbase. Seems pretty simple. Lots of weight to be saved with composite (pronounced plastic) panels. Those doors are massive and very heavy at both flanks. McLaren has used plastic panels. Of course you would drop some mass attacking that lovely engine but many here have falsely conditioned themselves to believe a puny engine spinning a bit faster is progress.

 

My incoming TM GTS is sounding better and better! No doubt the next car will be good looking and perform like a beast, but after speccing a $700k GTS part of me hopes it's not too good! lol

 

I confess to finding it amusing reading all the complaints about where A. N. Other car company is going wrong with its new cars - too electronic, too powerful, not like the old ones etc. etc. I was recently on RL reading exactly the same thing about the new 992 Sport Classic. The complaints are absolutely identical to the complaints about the original 997 Sport Classic when it came out. A car that is now lauded by the same complainers as a hero car. What is it with us humans? There has to be some psychological trait that has us convinced in our argument that new is inferior to old, even when we said the same thing about old versus even older. Even today’s universally applauded 458 was criticised when new for being a step too far in electronics, nowhere near analogue enough and possessed of the most ridiculous steering wheel man had yet invented. We do it time and again and believe we are somehow being ‘fresh’ and ‘relevant’ maybe ‘insightful’ even with our thinking.

The familiar arguments always bear some sort of logic - 1,000 hp is too much for the road, 500 hp is fine, very logical. Except there was a time when 500 hp was ‘too much for the road’ too. The conclusion can only be that no level of hp is too much for the road if the driving experience is good enough but any car more than 200 hp that is poorly controlled is never a good idea.

Then you get to the idea of ‘why’. Why might we want to have more than 200 hp, or 500 hp or even 1,000 hp in a road-going Ferrari? Ferrari, after all, is a business. And regardless of whether 1,000 hp is workable in a road car, the real question is ‘what brief is Ferrari filling that we will want to buy their too-powerful-for-the-road cars’? Without answering that question there is no Ferrari.

There are the usual trite answers that people who have too much money and too little taste want to show everyone that ‘they can’ (whether they can or not), or that there are always those who want to show off and have the latest car, whatever tech is in it. But I don’t know or haven’t come across too many of those among the many supercar owners I have either met or know well.

So why should Ferrari build an 800 hp or a 1,000 hp anything? Should, as suggested in this thread, they just build lightweight, lower power, fun track cars? From reading Fchat it would seem that a 1,000 kg, 500 hp car would sell more than all the other cars Ferrari offer, still more if it had a manual gearbox. Yet Lotus have tried for years with that formula and never really got any traction with it, despite making some excellent track cars. Somehow, I think Ferrari have found a formula over the years that is just better and more applicable for a road car.

Tesla make a 1,000 hp saloon car. It’s pretty cheap for such performance. In fact, there are numerous other companies, including many Chinese brands, with plans to make high output electric vehicles, output numbers which 5 years ago would have seemed faintly ridiculous. Many of these cars will beat a 1,000 kg Lotus Elise around a track too, despite, shall we say, less than exciting dynamics. The power genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

In this context do we really think Ferrari should ‘do a Lotus’? What makes us think they have any right to be a better Lotus than Lotus? You could argue that Lotus have no money but now that’s not true. They are owned by a very wealthy and capable Chinese manufacturer who also own Volvo and created the pretty cool (at least if you like EV daily transport) Volvo spin-off brand, Polestar. The first thing they did with Lotus? Build a proper replacement to the Evora, the Emira - billed as Lotus’s last gasoline car - and announce a new range of Lotus EV SUVs. The Emira will never sell more than 10,000 (because that’s max production) the SUVs….who knows what the limit will be? And don’t forget Porsche who have the 60-year-old 911 in GT form at 500 hp, fulfilling its specific track/road brief and doing it brilliantly. Ferrari has a different mission in my opinion. If the power genie is indeed out of the bottle, who will do high power in a stylish package, with proper dynamics, usable performance and engaging drive? Ferrari, that’s who. And of course, Lamborghini, McLaren and Porsche.

Tesla fans talk about how great electric high power is “and for a quarter of the Ferrari price”, but high power is only that if it isn’t more one-dimensional than point and squirt. An SF90 has similar performance to a Plaid in terms of brute acceleration but get to the track and it’s different, on a fast road it’s different and as an ownership experience it’s very different, if it wasn’t that way, what exactly would Ferrari’s role be in the 21st century?

I have a garage full of the old, very old and new. I love them all for different reasons. But I don’t need Ferrari to go back to building what they have already built and I already own. I for one am glad they are reinventing what it means to own a Ferrari in this day and age and am always interested in finding out what they do next with the specific restrictions placed on them. If they don’t meet the EV power challenge they’re history and I certainly don’t want that.

 

“ What is wrong with us humans” ?
I think we tend to romanticise things from the past. We still think the world of our childhood heroes.
Indeed, if “ everything was better previously” we all would die after taking a corner too fast, die from the flu and live an old 50 year old life!
Life is better now and keeps on getting better.
Perhaps we want to go back to a ‘ simpler time’ when things are hectic now in our life’s.
Yes, I would love Ferrari to do a Lotus type light car, but that would not be a commercial succes.
Being so successful as they are, Ferrari is at the place where they need to be it seems.
If we want a different car, than either buy an older Ferrari or get a different brand

 

Some humans don't like to adapt to change as it means going to the effort of re-calibrating our brains. Way, way too much work !

 

Fair enough, though would you consider a 3000 hp Ferrari “too much for the road?” How about 10,000?
In the past “too much“ wasn’t in fact, and the bemoaning it then was uncalled for; but is that necessarily true now, or in the future?
Roads haven’t changed, except for likely being worse, and there is a lot more traffic, and I’d argue less attentive and skilled drivers and this will only worsen. I’d also argue, that like drinking and driving being “funny” in the ‘70s, the public’s tolerance for speeders is starting to stretch thin, and will worsen as well.
Don’t need to bring up the hackneyed “Lotus” argument. I don’t think there is a chance I’d buy one no matter what they built. I don’t want to shell out a lot of money for a car brand I don’t care about.
When I shell out hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car it isn’t about transportation, it is about “the dream.” Lotus doesn’t make it into my dream, Ferrari does. I like luxury V12s from Ferrari, but I’d like something sporty and nimble..and I have that in my Speciale..I don’t need anything faster. Many agree, and the Speciale will be a million dollar + car in a few years IMO because of it. I’d like a Ferrari to still make cars like the Speciale so I can still go buy new cars from them like it and not sweat about driving around in a million dollar car. But they won’t. They are caught up in internet racing with McLaren.
Oh well, at least for now Porsche still “gets it” with their GT division.
Why can’t Ferrari have a “Heritage Division?” Build all the other stuff to say they are always at the bleeding edge, but have a division for “us” who want something more “old school,” tactile, and useable. Isn’t capitalism supposed to have companies building something to the wants of their clients? If Ferrari offered a car with the lines of the 296, which I think is beautiful, with “just” the 600+ hp V6 and no hybrid, lightened with no sound deadening and other “bleeding edge” tricks, CF racing seats only, either a manual or DCT (like Porsche does...hell...use theirs), and limited choice of interiors and colors and it would become an INSTANT LEGEND with all orders sold out in an afternoon....there is a reason for that.

 

[/QUOTE
"Why can’t Ferrari have a “Heritage Division? Build all the other stuff to say they are always at the bleeding edge, but have a division for “us” who want something more “old school,” tactile, and useable. [/QUOTE]

i think they have pretty much satisfied that with the Icona series

 

Just received an email from Ferrari regarding a "game changing" new model with a V12 to be introduced later this year.

 

I got that same email. I have an 812GTS reservation slot but had assumed that would be the last of the V12s. Sounds like it's not the end of the road for wonderful sound of Ferrari but I do wonder what affect this will have on the 812 market.

 

Depends on hybridization/forced induction vs pure NA engine. Cool to see the V12 will continue though

 

Speciale is a ton 'o fun isn't it...

 

SUV

 

That’s what I was thinking too. That’s confirmed to have a V12 I believe.