812 Replacement Rumors

sampelligrino · May 4, 2022

Lukeylikey said: ↑

I confess to finding it amusing reading all the complaints about where A. N. Other car company is going wrong with its new cars - too electronic, too powerful, not like the old ones etc. etc. I was recently on RL reading exactly the same thing about the new 992 Sport Classic. The complaints are absolutely identical to the complaints about the original 997 Sport Classic when it came out. A car that is now lauded by the same complainers as a hero car. What is it with us humans? There has to be some psychological trait that has us convinced in our argument that new is inferior to old, even when we said the same thing about old versus even older. Even today’s universally applauded 458 was criticised when new for being a step too far in electronics, nowhere near analogue enough and possessed of the most ridiculous steering wheel man had yet invented. We do it time and again and believe we are somehow being ‘fresh’ and ‘relevant’ maybe ‘insightful’ even with our thinking.

The familiar arguments always bear some sort of logic - 1,000 hp is too much for the road, 500 hp is fine, very logical. Except there was a time when 500 hp was ‘too much for the road’ too. The conclusion can only be that no level of hp is too much for the road if the driving experience is good enough but any car more than 200 hp that is poorly controlled is never a good idea.

Then you get to the idea of ‘why’. Why might we want to have more than 200 hp, or 500 hp or even 1,000 hp in a road-going Ferrari? Ferrari, after all, is a business. And regardless of whether 1,000 hp is workable in a road car, the real question is ‘what brief is Ferrari filling that we will want to buy their too-powerful-for-the-road cars’? Without answering that question there is no Ferrari.

There are the usual trite answers that people who have too much money and too little taste want to show everyone that ‘they can’ (whether they can or not), or that there are always those who want to show off and have the latest car, whatever tech is in it. But I don’t know or haven’t come across too many of those among the many supercar owners I have either met or know well.

So why should Ferrari build an 800 hp or a 1,000 hp anything? Should, as suggested in this thread, they just build lightweight, lower power, fun track cars? From reading Fchat it would seem that a 1,000 kg, 500 hp car would sell more than all the other cars Ferrari offer, still more if it had a manual gearbox. Yet Lotus have tried for years with that formula and never really got any traction with it, despite making some excellent track cars. Somehow, I think Ferrari have found a formula over the years that is just better and more applicable for a road car.

Tesla make a 1,000 hp saloon car. It’s pretty cheap for such performance. In fact, there are numerous other companies, including many Chinese brands, with plans to make high output electric vehicles, output numbers which 5 years ago would have seemed faintly ridiculous. Many of these cars will beat a 1,000 kg Lotus Elise around a track too, despite, shall we say, less than exciting dynamics. The power genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

In this context do we really think Ferrari should ‘do a Lotus’? What makes us think they have any right to be a better Lotus than Lotus? You could argue that Lotus have no money but now that’s not true. They are owned by a very wealthy and capable Chinese manufacturer who also own Volvo and created the pretty cool (at least if you like EV daily transport) Volvo spin-off brand, Polestar. The first thing they did with Lotus? Build a proper replacement to the Evora, the Emira - billed as Lotus’s last gasoline car - and announce a new range of Lotus EV SUVs. The Emira will never sell more than 10,000 (because that’s max production) the SUVs….who knows what the limit will be? And don’t forget Porsche who have the 60-year-old 911 in GT form at 500 hp, fulfilling its specific track/road brief and doing it brilliantly. Ferrari has a different mission in my opinion. If the power genie is indeed out of the bottle, who will do high power in a stylish package, with proper dynamics, usable performance and engaging drive? Ferrari, that’s who. And of course, Lamborghini, McLaren and Porsche.

Tesla fans talk about how great electric high power is “and for a quarter of the Ferrari price”, but high power is only that if it isn’t more one-dimensional than point and squirt. An SF90 has similar performance to a Plaid in terms of brute acceleration but get to the track and it’s different, on a fast road it’s different and as an ownership experience it’s very different, if it wasn’t that way, what exactly would Ferrari’s role be in the 21st century?

I have a garage full of the old, very old and new. I love them all for different reasons. But I don’t need Ferrari to go back to building what they have already built and I already own. I for one am glad they are reinventing what it means to own a Ferrari in this day and age and am always interested in finding out what they do next with the specific restrictions placed on them. If they don’t meet the EV power challenge they’re history and I certainly don’t want that.
Click to expand...

Actually, notice how the 992 SC used a detuned version of the 3.7L TTS engine (641hp-> 550hp), so less power... and added a manual... with every unit immediately spoken for I'm sure

Notice how the Porsche GT department has an absolutely rabid fanbase and how those cars, which are still holding out bucking the trend towards turbo/hybrid/electric/way moreHP, are demanding ADMs (supply and demand) far higher than any other Porsche model (upwards to 100-150k, as percentage of MSRP what nearly 100%?) here in the US.... did 992 GT3 even add any HP from 991.2 4L? I don't find those cars slow at all, slower than Tesla or SF90 sure, but what about more engaging and ironically fun to drive and exploitable on roads?

Notice how Chris Harris on his latest STO YouTube review heralds the NA V10, claiming it as the best Lambo he's ever driven, even though it's not that fast, not hybrid, and not "that" powerful. Even admitting the more powerful SF90/765LT/anything turbo or hybrid will smoke it clean off the line...

The Lotus argument I don't properly buy because Lotus is not and will never be Ferrari, not comparable even if the two hypothetical cars are similar in stats (lightweight, engaging, and if God listened NA). The design, dealer network, engineering, passion, just intangible feel would be different. The prestige, legacy, heritage, etc of Ferrari all add to behind behind the wheel of a car with the cavallino on it

IMO, and it is just my opinion, but Ferrari heading into the same waters as everyone else going for heavier weight, more power, more hybridization doesn't help them distinguish themselves against the competition. I get that the world is changing, regulations yada yada.... But I always felt like Ferrari was different, look at the ethos of Enzo and his contempt for the trends or other people and their views... don't know if that's the same anymore!

JTSE30 · May 4, 2022

thx enzo said: ↑

Just received an email from Ferrari regarding a "game changing" new model with a V12 to be introduced later this year.
Click to expand...

@oversteer

that would be the FUV...
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ferrari-purosangue-suv-will-get-v12-power

paulchua · May 4, 2022

Lukeylikey said: ↑

I confess to finding it amusing reading all the complaints about where A. N. Other car company is going wrong with its new cars - too electronic, too powerful, not like the old ones etc. etc. I was recently on RL reading exactly the same thing about the new 992 Sport Classic. The complaints are absolutely identical to the complaints about the original 997 Sport Classic when it came out. A car that is now lauded by the same complainers as a hero car. What is it with us humans? There has to be some psychological trait that has us convinced in our argument that new is inferior to old, even when we said the same thing about old versus even older. Even today’s universally applauded 458 was criticised when new for being a step too far in electronics, nowhere near analogue enough and possessed of the most ridiculous steering wheel man had yet invented. We do it time and again and believe we are somehow being ‘fresh’ and ‘relevant’ maybe ‘insightful’ even with our thinking.

The familiar arguments always bear some sort of logic - 1,000 hp is too much for the road, 500 hp is fine, very logical. Except there was a time when 500 hp was ‘too much for the road’ too. The conclusion can only be that no level of hp is too much for the road if the driving experience is good enough but any car more than 200 hp that is poorly controlled is never a good idea.

Then you get to the idea of ‘why’. Why might we want to have more than 200 hp, or 500 hp or even 1,000 hp in a road-going Ferrari? Ferrari, after all, is a business. And regardless of whether 1,000 hp is workable in a road car, the real question is ‘what brief is Ferrari filling that we will want to buy their too-powerful-for-the-road cars’? Without answering that question there is no Ferrari.

There are the usual trite answers that people who have too much money and too little taste want to show everyone that ‘they can’ (whether they can or not), or that there are always those who want to show off and have the latest car, whatever tech is in it. But I don’t know or haven’t come across too many of those among the many supercar owners I have either met or know well.

So why should Ferrari build an 800 hp or a 1,000 hp anything? Should, as suggested in this thread, they just build lightweight, lower power, fun track cars? From reading Fchat it would seem that a 1,000 kg, 500 hp car would sell more than all the other cars Ferrari offer, still more if it had a manual gearbox. Yet Lotus have tried for years with that formula and never really got any traction with it, despite making some excellent track cars. Somehow, I think Ferrari have found a formula over the years that is just better and more applicable for a road car.

Tesla make a 1,000 hp saloon car. It’s pretty cheap for such performance. In fact, there are numerous other companies, including many Chinese brands, with plans to make high output electric vehicles, output numbers which 5 years ago would have seemed faintly ridiculous. Many of these cars will beat a 1,000 kg Lotus Elise around a track too, despite, shall we say, less than exciting dynamics. The power genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

In this context do we really think Ferrari should ‘do a Lotus’? What makes us think they have any right to be a better Lotus than Lotus? You could argue that Lotus have no money but now that’s not true. They are owned by a very wealthy and capable Chinese manufacturer who also own Volvo and created the pretty cool (at least if you like EV daily transport) Volvo spin-off brand, Polestar. The first thing they did with Lotus? Build a proper replacement to the Evora, the Emira - billed as Lotus’s last gasoline car - and announce a new range of Lotus EV SUVs. The Emira will never sell more than 10,000 (because that’s max production) the SUVs….who knows what the limit will be? And don’t forget Porsche who have the 60-year-old 911 in GT form at 500 hp, fulfilling its specific track/road brief and doing it brilliantly. Ferrari has a different mission in my opinion. If the power genie is indeed out of the bottle, who will do high power in a stylish package, with proper dynamics, usable performance and engaging drive? Ferrari, that’s who. And of course, Lamborghini, McLaren and Porsche.

Tesla fans talk about how great electric high power is “and for a quarter of the Ferrari price”, but high power is only that if it isn’t more one-dimensional than point and squirt. An SF90 has similar performance to a Plaid in terms of brute acceleration but get to the track and it’s different, on a fast road it’s different and as an ownership experience it’s very different, if it wasn’t that way, what exactly would Ferrari’s role be in the 21st century?

I have a garage full of the old, very old and new. I love them all for different reasons. But I don’t need Ferrari to go back to building what they have already built and I already own. I for one am glad they are reinventing what it means to own a Ferrari in this day and age and am always interested in finding out what they do next with the specific restrictions placed on them. If they don’t meet the EV power challenge they’re history and I certainly don’t want that.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post. It is one of the most thoughtful and eloquent reads I have read here in a long time. I can't agree with you more.

RamsHmb · May 4, 2022

JTSE30 said: ↑

@oversteer

that would be the FUV...
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ferrari-purosangue-suv-will-get-v12-power
Click to expand...

For sure. They call it a thoroughbred in the email.

Maser GTS · May 4, 2022

From the earnings call today--"And finally, to return to the present, tomorrow, is a big day. We will unveil our first new model for this year, the new Ferrari Limited Edition V12, which I'm delighted to announce, is already sold out."

Is this the PS or something else?

paulchua · May 4, 2022

italiafan said: ↑

Fair enough, though would you consider a 3000 hp Ferrari “too much for the road?” How about 10,000?
In the past “too much“ wasn’t in fact, and the bemoaning it then was uncalled for; but is that necessarily true now, or in the future?
Roads haven’t changed, except for likely being worse, and there is a lot more traffic, and I’d argue less attentive and skilled drivers and this will only worsen. I’d also argue, that like drinking and driving being “funny” in the ‘70s, the public’s tolerance for speeders is starting to stretch thin, and will worsen as well.
Don’t need to bring up the hackneyed “Lotus” argument. I don’t think there is a chance I’d buy one no matter what they built. I don’t want to shell out a lot of money for a car brand I don’t care about.
When I shell out hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car it isn’t about transportation, it is about “the dream.” Lotus doesn’t make it into my dream, Ferrari does. I like luxury V12s from Ferrari, but I’d like something sporty and nimble..and I have that in my Speciale..I don’t need anything faster. Many agree, and the Speciale will be a million dollar + car in a few years IMO because of it. I’d like a Ferrari to still make cars like the Speciale so I can still go buy new cars from them like it and not sweat about driving around in a million dollar car. But they won’t. They are caught up in internet racing with McLaren.
Oh well, at least for now Porsche still “gets it” with their GT division.
Why can’t Ferrari have a “Heritage Division?” Build all the other stuff to say they are always at the bleeding edge, but have a division for “us” who want something more “old school,” tactile, and useable. Isn’t capitalism supposed to have companies building something to the wants of their clients? If Ferrari offered a car with the lines of the 296, which I think is beautiful, with “just” the 600+ hp V6 and no hybrid, lightened with no sound deadening and other “bleeding edge” tricks, CF racing seats only, either a manual or DCT (like Porsche does...hell...use theirs), and limited choice of interiors and colors and it would become an INSTANT LEGEND with all orders sold out in an afternoon....there is a reason for that.
Click to expand...

Even with, say 10,000 hp, it's linear. With electric, it can all be done by a robot. That's what causes the gnashing of teeth; I get it. In our hypothetical, if true - it will happen gradually and at a pace that the market will accept. I believe the public will reward/punish what works and what doesn't.
The Chiron isn't exactly staying on the shelves.
***
The eyebrow raised to me is why people care so much about what doesn't have to affect you? I don't watch if serving sizes at Mcdonald's double; nobody is forcing me to eat two big macs.

Xrayv8 · May 4, 2022

Maser GTS said: ↑

From the earnings call today--"And finally, to return to the present, tomorrow, is a big day. We will unveil our first new model for this year, the new Ferrari Limited Edition V12, which I'm delighted to announce, is already sold out."

Is this the PS or something else?
Click to expand...

Its the PS for sure, confirmed by my dealer at the 296 GTS unveiling

Jonathan19 · May 4, 2022

Maser GTS said: ↑

From the earnings call today--"And finally, to return to the present, tomorrow, is a big day. We will unveil our first new model for this year, the new Ferrari Limited Edition V12, which I'm delighted to announce, is already sold out."

Is this the PS or something else?
Click to expand...

Did you have a link for this "Call"?

They really show a New car Tomorrow!?

italiafan · May 4, 2022

paulchua said: ↑

Even with, say 10,000 hp, it's linear. With electric, it can all be done by a robot. That's what causes the gnashing of teeth; I get it. In our hypothetical, if true - it will happen gradually and at a pace that the market will accept. I believe the public will reward/punish what works and what doesn't.
The Chiron isn't exactly staying on the shelves.
***
The eyebrow raised to me is why people care so much about what doesn't have to affect you? I don't watch if serving sizes at Mcdonald's double; nobody is forcing me to eat two big macs.
Click to expand...

What’s affecting me is them not building the car I want, but instead building tech-oriented cars I don’t want. They’re abandoning me, not the other way around.

F2003-GA · May 4, 2022

JTSE30 said: ↑

That sounds interesting, unless the engine is smaller, what is removed? The rear trunk space? The 'back shelf'? Very curious given the SP3 is longer than the 812 (by about 1 inch, about 25mm)

Hopefully the wheelbase is also shorter, would save weight and complexity by eliminating the rear-steering mechanisms, no need for a virtual short wheelbase if it is actually shorter!

But, being shorter almost seems impossible unless the engine size is reduced...
Click to expand...

Being shorter is a big clue to the engine shrinking also since its a Hybrid no need for an alternator
I can see the wheel base shrinking 30-50mm with an entire clean sheet design

chet · May 4, 2022

Xrayv8 said: ↑

Its the PS for sure, confirmed by my dealer at the 296 GTS unveiling
Click to expand...

The Purosangue is limited edition?

haithman · May 4, 2022

chet said: ↑

The Purosangue is limited edition?
Click to expand...

Assume the V12 variant will be

Jonathan19 · May 4, 2022

Xrayv8 said: ↑

Its the PS for sure, confirmed by my dealer at the 296 GTS unveiling
Click to expand...

PS Tomorrow? Really?

Maser GTS · May 4, 2022

Jonathan19 said: ↑

Did you have a link for this "Call"?

They really show a New car Tomorrow!?
Click to expand...

Here is the link--https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2021/05/04/ferrari-nv-race-q1-2021-earnings-call-transcript/

9nb · May 4, 2022

Maser GTS said: ↑

Here is the link--https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2021/05/04/ferrari-nv-race-q1-2021-earnings-call-transcript/
Click to expand...

This article is dates 2021, I believe the V12 he is referring to is the 812C.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ray Schumi · May 4, 2022

Maser GTS said: ↑

Here is the link--https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2021/05/04/ferrari-nv-race-q1-2021-earnings-call-transcript/
Click to expand...

This was a year ago

Gesendet von iPhone mit FerrariChat

Maser GTS · May 4, 2022

Ray Schumi said: ↑

This was a year ago

Gesendet von iPhone mit FerrariChat
Click to expand...

Good eyes! Sorry for mea culpa!

Jonathan19 · May 4, 2022

Maser GTS said: ↑

Here is the link--https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2021/05/04/ferrari-nv-race-q1-2021-earnings-call-transcript/
Click to expand...

But this is for 2021.....

Jonathan19 · May 4, 2022

Maser GTS said: ↑

Good eyes! Sorry for mea culpa!
Click to expand...

No problem, it happens to everyone.

JTSE30 · May 4, 2022

Maser GTS said: ↑

Good eyes! Sorry for mea culpa!
Click to expand...

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ferrari-purosangue-suv-will-get-v12-power

SirTony76 · May 4, 2022

https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/corporate/financial-documents is probably what you are looking for

Maser GTS · May 4, 2022

SirTony76 said: ↑

https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/corporate/financial-documents is probably what you are looking for
Click to expand...

The earnings transcript for today's call is here. Also the audio presentation is available. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4506898-ferrari-nv-race-ceo-benedetto-vigna-on-q1-2022-results-earnings-call-transcript

day355 · May 4, 2022

Lukeylikey said: ↑

So why should Ferrari build an 800 hp or a 1,000 hp anything? Should, as suggested in this thread, they just build lightweight, lower power, fun track cars? From reading Fchat it would seem that a 1,000 kg, 500 hp car would sell more than all the other cars Ferrari offer, still more if it had a manual gearbox. Yet Lotus have tried for years with that formula and never really got any traction with it, despite making some excellent track cars. Somehow, I think Ferrari have found a formula over the years that is just better and more applicable for a road car.
Click to expand...

Ferrari's benchmark should not be Lotus, but Gordon Murray.
Why ? because this man makes cars for those who like to drive and that Ferrari makes digital and artificial cars, heavy and without nobility (because hybridization removes nobility, a bit like liquid crystals on a watch) with unusable power for those who , mostly want to show off. This is not a criticism, just a fact.
Very often, the pleasure is in simplicity, Gordon Murray has understood that, Ferrari is still looking!

Lagunae92 · May 4, 2022

day355 said: ↑

Ferrari's benchmark should not be Lotus, but Gordon Murray.
Why ? because this man makes cars for those who like to drive and that Ferrari makes digital and artificial cars, heavy and without nobility (because hybridization removes nobility, a bit like liquid crystals on a watch) with unusable power for those who , mostly want to show off. This is not a criticism, just a fact.
Very often, the pleasure is in simplicity, Gordon Murray has understood that, Ferrari is still looking!
Click to expand...

I’d rather my cars be beautiful like Ferrari has done. Murray’s cars are not speaking to my eyes.

Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

day355 · May 4, 2022

Lukeylikey said: ↑

If they don’t meet the EV power challenge they’re history and I certainly don’t want that.
Click to expand...

For the share price or for the buyers?
Ferrari is another brand that is phasing in and should have a green rather than yellow background on the badge.
Why not recognize it and cling to a decoy.
Even inside the factory they are aware of it.

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