355 Cylinder Head Flow Data/Max HP Potential | Page 2 | FerrariChat

355 Cylinder Head Flow Data/Max HP Potential

Discussion in '348/355' started by sketos355, May 6, 2022.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

Page 2 of 3
  1. Mark HT

    Mark HT Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 12, 2022
    39
    Full Name:
    Mark HT
    #26 Mark HT, May 10, 2022
    Toda have their own machines and could make rods in house if they thought it were necessary.

    Have you heard of Pankl? If not, have a look here: https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27372

    Notice that most of those rods are made by Pankl. They are basically the Mahle of conrods.
     
  2. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,503
    Lake Villa IL
    #27 INTMD8, May 10, 2022
    My guess would be, you probably aren't going to find a lighter replacement.

    That and, from their photos, the additional stroke puts the wrist pin bore maybe a millimeter away from the oil ring land on the piston?

    So if your idea was longer rods that complicates things a bit. Maybe possible to move the ring pack up on the piston/use thinner rings but probably wouldn't get you much room.
     
  3. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,383
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    #28 bobzdar, May 11, 2022
    I don't think the rods are/will be the limitation in anything you do on that engine, so not sure what you're after there...The only rod failures I've heard of are cars that sat and had pitting due to contaminated oil. I think if you want to make the power you're after, start with engine management and dyno tuning, play with cam timing and if you need more, then look at the valvetrain for both power and reliability you'll need as you'll have to spin it higher. The bottom end isn't going to limit you...

    Fwiw, I'm all for this as spinning it higher is the only real way to make more power. That's where the fun is anyeay, and it has plenty of bottom end for puttering around town. I'd love a 10k rpm setup, but making the top end live there is going to be the challenge.
     
    INTMD8 likes this.
  4. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,631
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #29 Ferrarium, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    It never as easy to do as it is to talk about. One stands a high probability of building a car that runs horridly with numerous issues, especially if the goal is non track use. Seen it many times with many cars. I'm sure your aware of course.

    But I'm all for it so let's see it happen. If this is just research for research sake and that's fine too.

    But it begs the question, are you going to try and build an engine or just brainstorming? It would be great to see it attempted!


    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  5. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #30 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    Valid points..I thank you all for your interest.

    Im realy glad this is starting to build into a robust discussion..

    Im sure if we put all our collective wisdom in one place we could come up with a viable option to the TODA monopoly.

    When you task TODA to make an engine for you, they give you a list of 13k of Ferrari OEM parts they want you to source first.
    Then you need to buy the 355 Stroker kit.. which is $40k. That's just the kit.! Then TODA wants $10k to build it and buz it on a dyno.
    It about a 65k experiment just for the engine to be built for you,, In Japan!!..
    Now you gotta pay to bring it back, not to mention freight costs import duties But you get 491hp dont you??!? dont you?!?

    I mean take a look at the image below..? What do we see.?

    Look at those headers!! what part of that fits in our cars?!? ..and have you heard how it sounds??!

    F355エンジンベンチテスト最高回転域♪ - YouTube

    What part of that suits our cars.??!?
    Yes, the engine does make 491 hp.. In totally ideal conditions with race fuel, trumpets only.. No air filters/air boxes, no plenum chambers!!
    That's not what will happen when you put it into your car.. so what are you realy buying??! ...

    Piston - TODA RACING (toda-racing.co.jp)

    Sorry, but cranks dont cost 20k to make... bearings dont cost $5k to make, $3k for valve springs?!
    I mean for God's sake you have to re-use your own rods? OEM Valves?! 13k of OEM parts ..
    Thats the best a professional race team can come up with!!?

    The list goes on.. but you get the point.

    Are you getting bang for buck here?! I mean.. is there something genetic about the japaneese that makes them better engine builders?!

    I dont know about the rest of you but.. Im here to buy an egine.. not bend over and take one!

    Gentlemen.. There exists a better way.

    The time of TODA is over.. The era of the F'chat stroker has begun!

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 14, 2011
    8,562
    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Tim Dee
    #31 SoCal1, May 11, 2022
    Remember once yo get to aboutz 375-400 whp you need a correct main shaft on the trans. And have a spare or 2 transmissions ready to hot swap. Unless your just going to street drive it like my mother in law drives her AMG
    :)
     
    ShineKen likes this.
  7. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #32 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    SoCal1.. I know nothing of this phenomenon, do you have personal experience of this issue in a high powered F348 f355?

    I'm only going by the examples of those before me like the Nizpro Down Under Twin Turbo F355 with 1000HP, and the Fueltech Turbo F355 with 777HP.
    AFAIK they have not reported such issues..

    Im getting rid of the Dual mass Flywheel and going TTV 360 Flywheel.. Is this going to cause an issue with harmonics??

    Im just a street cruiser/racer thats all. Not a good enough driver to mix it up with the big boys on the circuit..
     
  8. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,631
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #33 Ferrarium, May 11, 2022
    Because they replaced the main shaft already. You can buy them as high strength versions from some outfit, there are threads on it.

    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  9. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #34 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    Oh.. I was not aware of this.. Does anyone have a link? who makes the shaft? Ill run it past my guys. This is important as I need to know how this will react with the F360 flywheel single plate clutch conversion
     
  10. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,631
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #35 Ferrarium, May 11, 2022
  11. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #36 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    Phase 1: Covert to 2.7 is underway..

    AEM 400lph Fuel Pump P/N 50-1009: suports 1200HP NA, 400LPH @ 40psi Current Draw (40 psi): 9.73 amps no check valve, 10.68 amps w check valve (13.5v)
    Viton E85 Resistant O ring 144.4mm X 3.1mm ( much cheaper than oem)
    Fuel pump cradle has Nylon 11 E85 resistant lines just like OEM.
    Proflow male barbed, and female swivel fittings PN: PFE744-06BK, PFE7411-06BK
    Nylon Fuel pump support ordered.
    Aliexpress $23 cheapie chineese 2.7 MAF bodies (soon to be gutted) ordered
    Viton E85 resistant Fuel pump anti vibration gasket ordered.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 14, 2011
    8,562
    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Tim Dee
    #37 SoCal1, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    Did forget to mention I run ultra light flywheel and clutch on the high HP car

    One of the NASCAR guys here makes a good input shaft I forgot his name

    While I remember I also run the Lobro CV joints with the areo boots on the axles. I like the aro boots as they stay out of the way of heat better.
    I am strictly race, my cars do not see the street except to maybe do a beer run during the race LOL
     
  13. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #38 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    A very reputable CNC head machining specialist has now come on board. By luck he has some F129C heads that have come in for a standard reco.
    They have promised to look at the head and access the feasability of oversize valves +- porting.
    Ive asked them to cfm the heads for us.. theres even talk of 'mapping' the head.. ie laser scanning to produce a 3D model where acccurate chnages in flow can be modelled..

    Cant believe my luck here..:) Should have some real world figures soon.. thats if they go ahead with it.o_O.
     
    Targatime and SoCal1 like this.
  14. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #39 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    OK.. So moving on

    Need some input from the gurus here as regards Rod Ratios. Rod Ratio = Rod Length/Crank Stroke

    The standard rod used in the OEM & TODA engines is 137mm(centre to centre)
    OEM F355 137mm/ 77mm = 1.78 (3496cc)
    TODAF355     137mm/85mm = 1.61 (3859cc)

    Im no guru with this sort of stuff, and please correct me if im mislead, but by basic principles...

    Lower Rod ratios leads to higher side wall pressure, increased friction(-ve HP) + wear, Increased Temps
    The engine will typically pull more vacuum at low RPM, which means better throttle response and low end torque (good for street performance and everyday driving). Spark timing can be advanced a few degrees for some additional low speed torque, and the engine is less prone to detonation, (good in in turbo,supercharged or N20 applications.

    Higher Rod ratios : Using longer connecting rods with the same stroke reduces the side loading on the pistons, which reduces friction. It also increases the piston dwell time at TDC. Holding compression for maybe half a degree of crankshaft rotation longer at TDC improves combustion efficiency and squeezes a little more power out of the air / fuel mixture. Typically, an engine with a higher rod ratio will produce a little more power from mid-range to peak RPM.

    Obviously in a street engine you want a lower rod ratio.Thats what you want.. power down low in the rpm range.. Of course you need a camshaft to suit. but how low is too low? whats the recomended norm..

    And more importantly how long a rod can you go in the F355 bore before the wrist pin hits oil ring landing on the piston.. If more can be gained then its custom Titanium Rods and not OEM ferrari..Anyone know how much wiggle room is left?

    My guys. tell me that 1.55:1 is the normal limit. Anything lower than that will definitely be a problem.
    To put it into perspective, the Honda B18C engine out of the 90's Integra Type R had a 1.58:1 ratio and turned to 8300 rpm as a standard road car.

    So Im calling on all F chatters for their input on the design of the Fchat 355 Stroker..

    What size Bore/ Stroke and Rod Ratio for the Fchat Street Stroker would you pick and why?
     
  15. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,503
    Lake Villa IL
    #40 INTMD8, May 11, 2022
    Personally, stock. I wouldn't have any interest in trying to increase low/midrange power and don't think it's worth the cost for minimal displacement gain.

    If I was spending the money it would go elsewhere. (heads/cams/engine management/etc)
     
  16. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #41 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    INTMD8 Is this for a race car or street car application..?

    It would be interesting to know how many people have gone the distance to max out the OEM platform in the way you just described and what HP limit @ ? rpm were achieved?

    It seems that what is being described here is basically a maxed out Challenge car.. correct?
     
  17. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,503
    Lake Villa IL
    #42 INTMD8, May 11, 2022
    Street car. Just personal preference.

    If I wanted low/mid rpm torque I would have a different car altogether rather than try to achieve that with an engine designed for high rpm.

    To me if you feel there's not enough low end torque you're just in the wrong gear :)
     
  18. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #43 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    I take your point INTMD8, and its a valid one.

    I would love to do it that way.. would save a heap of $$, and be a ****e load of fun.. but im just concerned with how hard you would have to spin the engine to achieve the desired power output. The F355 was originally designed to spin to 11k, but ferrari engineers found that timing belt life was severely reduced so they pulled the rpm limit back to 8250 to make it live longer.. I have never found any data to suggest that engine life was also reduced?!.. perhaps someone out there would know.

    Remember TODA uses an 8500rpm limit as well.. maybe they were getting the same issues when turning it even harder?! not sure..and maybe thats why TODA have uprated timing belts as well?!

    As regards the stroker build.. Rest assured, it wont be minimal displacement..
    Our plans are to make it bigger than the TODA offering..we just dont know how big yet..

    This is not the realm of mythology and self serving fantasy.. The people im involved with do this for a living..and have done it on numerous exotics.. and at half the cost of the TODA offering..

    Of course.. if it goes ahead I see no reason why they wont be marketing the kit for all.. im just the guy who came along at the right time to kick off the prototype.

    Thats why I'm asking for everyones input on this..
     
  19. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,503
    Lake Villa IL
    #44 INTMD8, May 11, 2022
    Stock rev limit is 8700.

    Piston speed with the stock 77mm crank at that rpm is rather high at 22.33 meters per second.

    Toda 85mm at 8700 is 24.65 meters per second. (reaches max stock piston speed at about 7,850 rpm)

    F1 car with 40mm stroke and 18,000 rpm is 24 meters per second.

    So, speeds are getting up there.
     
    SoCal1 likes this.
  20. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,383
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    #45 bobzdar, May 11, 2022
    If bang for the buck is remotely a consideration, a Ferrari is the wrong starting point, unfortunately. Parts are 10x the cost of normal cars, both oem and aftermarket. They have to be due to the tiny volumes involved. TODA probably spent a few hundred grand developing that kit and have sold what, half a dozen? Charging $20-30k over cost is the only hope of recouping it. I'm sure they did it for a race program 15-20 years ago and we're lucky they even still are willing to make and sell the parts, tbh. Michelotto won't afaik. Once the car is no longer relevant they throw the tooling out and move to the next car. They probably have the drawings still but to tool up and make 1 or 2 will be astronomically expensive, so they probably only get used if classiche comes calling.

    There's a company in Belgium that makes reasonably priced cams. That plus larger valves and upgraded timing belt (toda may be your only option there) and some dyno time is your only hope of doing it "cheaply". Bottom end won't be the issue, getting the valve train to live will be. Stroker...I don't know if that's wise. That engine topped out at 3.6 liters for a reason, if stroking it were a reasonable option that wouldn't mess up the bottom end geometry and split the block or run into harmonics issues that blow it apart, Ferrari probably would have done it. The big power on the table is in cam timing and engine management - we know that because they had to do a lot of work to get the car to pass emissions, which limits overlap and forces their hand on the engine mapping to reduce idle and nox emissions. So freeing it up there is where there is probably a good amount of power, especially if you don't care if it idles below 1000rpm (which is an emissions thing). Retard the stock cams, narrow the lobe separation, ditch the cats and remap it and your probably gaining 30-40hp up top if the injectors can keep up. Get cams that use the 5th valve for breathing and not to bandaid idle emissions and probably quite a bit more on tap. It's going to take a lot of experimentation because I don't know of any software that can properly model the 5 valve heads and cams with split valve timing on the intake valves, so you'll have to play around on the dyno.

    Pick up a spare engine next time one pops up on ebay, you'll probably need it if you really want to play around. I think it'd be awesome and I'd love to play around with mine, but I just know I don't have that kind of time. At least I have a 2.7 so there's some stuff that can be done reasonably. Good luck.
     
    IvanRico and INTMD8 like this.
  21. sketos355

    sketos355 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2021
    47
    Melbourne Australia
    Full Name:
    steve
    #46 sketos355, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    Indeed, but there 'ain't no free lunch'. You have to make the power somehow?!?

    Lets look at the OEM 3496cc unit: (77mm stroke)

    @ 8700k. Piston speed 22.33 meters per second.
    @ 9000k Piston speed 23.10 meters per second.
    @ 9500k Piston speed 24.38 meters per second.
    @10,000k Piston speed 24.67 meters per second.
    @11,000k Piston speed 28.23 meters per second.

    Has it been done..? Yes. Michelotto's offering at Le Mans apparently spun to 11k and made 500hp..
    Not sure if it finished the race nor how long after that it survived in that form?

    And anyway, where is the 'magical recipe' for this concoction? What cams were used.. What was the compression ratio?

    Do we hunt down Michael Schumachers F355 that also spun to 11k, askpull out the valvetrain and block so we can copy it?!

    There's no reference point to start with? Who has even 'done' this? There's a hell of a lot of R & D , $$ and broken valvetrain before you get this one right!!
    And when you do.. exactly how long will it last in this form?

    Toda engineers, when tasked with making more power from the OEM didn't chose to increase the rpm limit in the OEM unit..
    They chose to stroke the engine! I wonder why?! TODA have done all the hard R & D for you. You dont have to guess the compression ratios or the camshafts.
    They have built the engine.. its not an idea on paper or in someones head.

    The destructive effects of piston speed can be reduced by reducing the mass of reciprocating components and or increasing the rod ratio.

    I ran the concerns of a 25 mps piston speed past my guys.. they said its a 'non issue'.. but didn't explain why..

    Nevertheless I appreciate everyones thoughts on the matter.. its realy good! ..Keep it coming..:)
     
  22. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,503
    Lake Villa IL
    #47 INTMD8, May 12, 2022
    I still think you should start with a specific goal, HP at what rpm, max rpm, fuel used, etc and build it to meet your goal.

    Sure you can copy a Toda engine, or have them build you one.

    That being said, to be objective I don't think it's fair to say "why did they use stock rods" "is there something genetic about the japaneese that makes them better engine builders"...

    ......and follow up others input with "Toda engineers chose to do this and this"

    In my opinion it can't be both. You either trust their decisions implicitly or you don't. Can't cherry pick the ones you like and questions the ones you don't.

    Well you can, but doesn't make a great argument :)
     
    Targatime likes this.
  23. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    5,965
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    #48 taz355, May 22, 2022

    Do you have a photo of the joints. I did not bother to look when I was there, dam!
     
  24. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2013
    434
    Sydney
    #49 Andy 355, May 23, 2022
    Generally, cylinder head flow cfm can be linked to valve size and valve lift on a flow bench. If you want a faster Ferrari, it's best to buy one.
     
  25. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,383
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    #50 bobzdar, May 23, 2022
    Pretty sure the higher end toda packages (with solid lifters) do spin the engines quite a bit higher. They keep the stock rev limit with the stock hydraulic lifters, sure, but the solid cams and upgraded spring packages spin it higher I'm sure, along with the displacement increases.
     
Page 2 of 3

Share This Page