Ferrari 412 - Newly Rebuilt Cylinder Heads / No Compression Cylinder #1 | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Ferrari 412 - Newly Rebuilt Cylinder Heads / No Compression Cylinder #1

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 360modena2003, Jun 3, 2022.

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  1. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Yes, this is possible. I am aware of which pistons are up when I am installing the cams and just make sure I don't let one hit. You do need to be careful when assembling these things.
     
  2. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    #27 360modena2003, Jun 7, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
    One question, you mentioned that TDC on these engines has both intake/exhaust valves open in overlap, that means it is on the exhaust/intake stroke?

    I always understood TDC was on compression stroke (both valves open).
     
  3. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    *both valves CLOSED.
     
  4. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    At TDC on compression, yes. At TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke & the start of the intake stroke, both are open, overlap. So at some point when putting the cams in, one cylinder will be at TDC overlap. Care must be taken not to let the valves hit then.
     
  5. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    So in the position where the camshaft marks are aligned (see Fig 55 below), the valves are open?

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  6. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
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    Wade Williams
    At TDC, there will always be a cylinder at TDC with the valves at overlap and another cylinder at TDC compression. I haven't had a 412 open lately. I had one arrive yesterday that will be open in the future and I can be more specific. So to answer, yes, there are valves open and close to the piston at TDC.
     
  7. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    I was referring to cylinder #1 specifically.

    TDC #1 is normally on the compression stroke, as it is also used for ignition timing.
     
  8. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,386
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    When installing any cylinder head I usually move the crank about 10 degrees left or right of TDC l..just to bring the pistons down slightly. That way any chance of piston to valve contact is greatly reduced. Once the cams are installed bring everything back up to TDC and time away..
     
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  9. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
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    Central NJ
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    Eric
  10. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    Very good idea, with a 12 cylinder engine, you have "60" degrees of firing interval, so 10 degrees is well within safety margin.

    Do you mount the camshaft prior to installing it on the engine block?
     
  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,386
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    No..head then cams. I have a personal theory about it..but it's just too long to type .lol
     
  12. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,868
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    It's much easier to shim the tapets while the heads are out. On the other hand in order to inster the head together with the cam, you do have to cut the large o-rings that seal the timing chest. Once these rings are cut you need to use some sealant, which I don't like.

    The manual states that you have to cut these rings, so the official procedure is assuming "camshafts already on the head".
     
  13. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    Do share! :)
     
  14. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    Just a small update that may be useful to anyone that replaces the valves on the 365/400/412 engines.

    All my intake valves are (were) OE and sit perfectly flush with the head, the new valve that I ordered DOES NOT.

    The new intake valve sits slightly proud.

    I called the supplier of the valve and they got in touch with many shops that have used the same valve and confirmed that it is normal and does not cause any issue.

    I would have preferred if the valve would sit the same, but seems no choice.

    Any similar experiences? Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Sent from my MAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
     
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    How could it be normal to have zero compression?
     
  16. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    No, you misunderstood.

    I HAD zero compression due to a bent valve. That valve has been replaced with a NEW valve, and it is the new valve that sits slightly proud.

    Sent from my MAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
     
  17. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    The head is back on:

    Just to clarify:

    At TDC both valves on cylinder #1 are CLOSED, as I mentioned before. No overlap.


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  18. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
  19. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,868
    Lyon (FR)
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    R. Emin
    As said to you in our private discussion, my valve seats were replaced and machinated so that the valve do not protrude. It made me feel better :) but I had to use very thin valve shims that are made by the manufacturer but not stockpiled everywhere.

    The valve seats are so beefy (~4mm thick, 7mm deep) that you can grind them quite a lot without any second thougt.

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  20. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
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    Wade Williams
    Until you run out of valve shims thickness, so you have to be thinking about it as you set up the valves. I don't set up valves that need non standard shims. I find it tends to make things more difficult later.
    You heads look nice. It should be running great soon it looks like.
     
  21. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,868
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    The shims I used were regular Ferrari shims, unfortunately these are thinner than what was used in the Fiats of that era, and hence I had to pay for the prancing horse premium. Before using the superformances valves I could use such cheap shims. This being said I wish I had replaced that sodium filled valve on the first rebuild! My engine was an absolute mess after this valve failure.

    Car is back in business. Quite recent actually as I did 400km with it. Had to drop the right head twice, the left one was even more troublesome and had to be removed 4 times! On the plus side, I can now drop a head in 13hours...
     
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  22. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,395
    These engines are actually very easy to work on.

    The only part that I find troublesome is the oil/water pump and the tensioner of the oil/water pump.

    Once you remove the exhaust manifold, the heads are a joy to remove.

    It helps to have an electric driver to remove the 100(?) acorn nuts, makes the job much easier and actually enjoyable.

    Sent from my MAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
     
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