575M - F1 to Gated 6 Manual Conversion

#carporn

 

Hi Dan, any updates on your 575 conversion? Hopefully it'll be all done in time for the driving season.

 

OK cool; keep us posted!

 

I’m super excited for you and can’t wait!

 

Hoping you are going to have an epic holiday weekend enjoying the converted 575!!!! We are going to need a video!

 

WOW I’m excited for you!!!!!

Can’t wait for the project to reach conclusion and then get and hear a video.

 

I should have also asked for the dyno did you use a hub or roller dyno and what drivetrain loss did you apply to normalize the rear wheel hp?

on my FM turbo Miata on a hub dyno with 10psi I think the corrected rear wheel number used 15% drivetrain loss to get a 302hp number. It’s been years so I’d have to dig for it.

 

I have a 550 gear linkage set in my garage...?

 

The 360 that just ended on BaT indicates that at least in the Ferrari market conversions or other major modifications don't seem to add monitory value. In the case of the auctioned 360 I believe the conversion actually reduced the car's valuation probably due to reduced interest?. The same car with that lovely color combination, mileage, CF sport seats, modular wheels, etc. would bring more had it been left with the factory F1 it came with. It may be worth it if one is after the experience but it doesn't seem to make financial sense. At best you'd get your money back, but this 360 shows even that is questionable.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-ferrari-360-modena-38/

 

Economic conditions = tightening spending.

 

In fairness that one was RNM?

I don’t know 360’s nor how many were 6MT’s but it sure feels like there are a ton of manual 360 compared to 575’s?

 

I think around 5k manual 360s. Also unlike the 360/430, where there is very large supply of potential f1 donors, only 2000 575m made, so a good gated conversion will be rare enough to justify a good bump in price. It’s not like converted 575 are flooding the market

 

I’m so fascinated by it I REALLY wish @dhalperin13 had sent BOTH his 575’s to EAG so he could keep the one he is putting Fabio’s system on and sell the other…..it would have been….buy 2….convert 2…..sell one….profit hugely…..then the retained one is free!
;-)

 

I don't believe rarity enters the valuation calculus in conversion. Converting a 575 to manual doesn't make it count, as far as collectability is concerned, among the less than 250 factory manuals just as doing so doesn't make the factory manuals less rare. For collectability the car's valuation is based on how it was configured from the factory not what was added by subsequant owners. That's why I believe converting a car (any car) will at best increase its value by the cost of the addition and will diminish its collectability value if it had any to start with. Does converting a 550 to F1 make it 1 of 1 super rare car? I don't think so.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say but once enough 575's are converted to Manual I think it will most definitely decrease the value of an original factory manual (I have no special comment on what happens to the value of the converted car and mostly agree with your assessment). A good manual conversion is a 100% viable replacement for a factory manual so that decreases the "specialness" of a factory manual imho. Only time will tell but I would take the under on these factory 575 and 599 manuals.

 

OTOH I do not believe at all that the valuation of a factory manual has anything to do with a supposed added desirability of a manual gearbox - there are many possibilities to buy manual cars (including the 550) so the stellar valuation of the manual 575s is only based on their rarity as original factory manual. Increasing the number of converted cars will therefore have no impact; which does not mean that the current valuation of manual 575s will not be re-assessed, it's just a completely independent process.
Eventually converting too many F1 to manual could make the remaining original F1 rarer and more valuable

 

Daytonas are rarer than 575, but the 100 or so converted spyders did not decrease the value of the 120 original spyders

 

I think the conversion discussion is fascinating. I purchased a 575 F1 a little over a year ago with the intent of converting it. I am partially waiting to see how this one turns out and I was also debating between finding a 550 parts car or going the EAG route. I have concluded that for me, EAG is the way to go. With that said, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is simply the driving the experience. The 550 market has gone up quite a bit, like everything else, to where you need to spend mid 100's, if not a little more for a sorted driver. Until recently, you could get a low mileage, nice 575 F1 for around 100, maybe even less. Spend 30-40 on a conversion and you basically had about the same cost. Yes, the 550 left the factory as a manual, so there will always be the originality debate, but most people would agree the 575 is a slightly more powerful and more sorted car. I personally prefer the looks of the 550, but that is subjective, to each their own. Point being, I believe a fair baseline for value will always be the 550 market. As long as you can pick up comparable, if not cleaner F1 575 for 40k or so less than a 550, it could make sense IF your intent is to simply buy the car to drive and enjoy the unique NA V12 manual experience.

I think another consideration is the 575 you are choosing to convert. Mine was in the low 20's. To me, that is a sweet spot. It will never be a museum piece, no one will ever consider it "low mileage" by Ferrari standards, but it is still a very fresh car. I personally wouldn't consider converting a sub 15k mile car for the simple fact that you are going to have to pay a premium for it and once converted, you may loose interest from a lot of people who would be in the market for an investment. If you don't think you'll ever sell, then I guess that doesn't matter, but I think a lot of us say that right up until there is a new shiny something in out sights.

I personally wouldn't mess with a "special" car. Something super low milage or with really rare options, but for me, a normal 575 with some miles on it, who cares? If it will make the owner happier to drive a manual car and they either already have a 575 or they feel a converted 575 will result in a better car or a better driving experience than a 550, then have at it. I think most people will agree, they are unlikely to loose money on the conversion.

 

This seems like a pretty sensible way of looking at the whole conversion question. The only other factor I would add here is the question of reliability, which in the case of the EAG conversions is a significant unknown at this early stage. If the converted gearboxes prove reliable, there will be a real niche for converted 575s - particularly among the 'driver' level cars/owners.

I am super curious to hear more as @dhalperin13 gets his car back and learn more about how it actually drives and holds up.

 

@dryheat Your note is extremely close to the “math” I had done.

An addition I would make is the closer the conversion candidate is to needing a clutch replacement the better because doing a ton all at once would be the key.

2 years ago-ish when I was heavily hunting 575’s my bogey was under $80k for a potential candidate. We will all look back and a few guys including especially @dhalperin13 and @SteveVT will have done extremely well when they bought.

For me, the “analogness” of the 550 (especially the gauges) was a “root driver” in my decision process. For me personally I have too many “forever not selling” cars that already don’t get used so having a 550 and 575 is even more impractical than I already am……someday I hope to do the 575 route as a short term convert, enjoy and then “release”.

I am equally excited and jealous for @dhalperin13

 

On the other hand, I'd push back on intentionally finding a driver level car to convert.

My perspective is perhaps not shared by most, but if you're going to inject $50K into a car to unlock peak fun, is the incremental ~$30K that gets you a mint example with a killer spec really not worth it? Paging @Mellow_Maranello, the man who has the best candidate out there. But even going with a superlative non-HGTC and adding Fabio + stick for $170-180K +/- (in today's dollars, presumably) represents a far better value than a mediocre, driver-level example that would still take $150K +/- to complete in my mind.

I'd consider reframing the conventional approach. I still think the 550 is the King of the Maranellos, but good ones are so far-and-few-in-between and are becoming ultra expensive. So when the objective is a killer Maranello driver, I'm thinking about pricing down from a blue chip 550 rather pricing up from an entry level 575. I'd argue that a higher number of us than expected would strongly consider paying more for the ultimate 575 conversion (low miles, mint, maintenance, great spec, OEM conversion) than a mediocre 550 - the value proposition is just really strong. I think the ultimate converted 575's should be somewhere around the 75th percentile or so of 550's in terms of value.

 

@Qksilver I agree with your thoughts on spending a bit more incrementally to get a spec or condition you are happy with. This isn’t to say you can’t be happy with the lowest $ cost of entry example but like you said if you’re already earmarking another $50k of costs you might as well just go for it, especially if it’s a car you plan to keep vs enjoy for a year or two then move on.

While my plan was to convert a relatively low, 12,400 mile, example I guess that’s no longer than case as I’ve added another 4k to the clock waiting for EAG to figure out their conversion hardware. Hopefully they get it sorted soon as I’m itching for the gated experience. (Slightly related, my ‘03 Vanquish just arrived in the UK for the Factory Works manual conversion so the race is on to see which of the two gets finished first!)