The end of Ferrari, as we know it | Page 7 | FerrariChat

The end of Ferrari, as we know it

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by johnk..., Jun 16, 2022.

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  1. 695

    695 Formula Junior

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    The future of performance EV is not faster 0-60 nor is it continuous strong acceleration until top speed of +200 mph, since we already have that technology on the road, only 14 years from the first Tesla Roadster. The future of performance EV is maximizing battery capacity and output while decreasing the weight of the battery pack. And there is the customization of old timers ... oh horror :)

    @Bullfighter - I guess you have already seen this 308 EV conversion. As the owner says 'I was starting to get tired of it and all the little things.' - 'now it is the perfect daily driver'

     
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  2. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #152 paulchua, Jun 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
    Just do a simple exercise and research that top chart. The x-axis is mislabelled. In fact, it should say “Years before 1950”, rather than “Years before present (2000 AD)”. The GISP2 ice core only extends up to 1855 – 95 years before 1950.

    The rest of that is by proxy.

    **for argument's sake, let's for a moment not even consider that***

    I sympathize - I too used to be very skeptical. As I said many times. I'm an "I have to see it to believe it type person." You can even view some of my old posts here where I was in the same camp as you.

    But.

    This is a simple question that doesn't take "thousands of years" to answer.

    What is causing ocean acidification? That's something any laymen can check and see with their own eyes today, like right now. No hocus pocus, no P&R, no spin. You can like go to any ocean and check yourself with a simple device and measure the rating. Like, it doesn't change by day like the weather; it doesn't fluctuate year by year. It's had a very simple and linear trend line.

    Again, Today, not 100 years from now.

    Now folks can say so what?

    That's fine, but at least that's an honest position versus saying my measurement is wrong.

    I mean, I guess it's plausible the device I was using was rigged by part of some secret international cabal of Illuminati - but at least we're being honest with each other on what we truly believe.

    Keep in mind, that I"m not advocating for any P&R position unless you think a PH rating is in the political realm.
     
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  3. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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  4. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #154 paulchua, Jun 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
    Yup, we should go back to 1968.

    Keeping the same formula is the ticket; see how well it did for US automakers in the late 70s and 80s?

    caterham 7 baby - forever!

    Oops, they went bankrupt - good thing Kazuho Takahashi bailed them out.
     
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  5. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I have seen it. Personally I would not convert a 308, because in my mind it's always been a loud, beautiful V8. I'm very much into originality -- probably the only Porsche 964 owner who hasn't lowered his car...

    However, if a successor to the 296 were to be an EV, packaged by Ferrari and not an aftermarket retrofit, I would be interested. Not a conversion but designed properly from the ground up. I think we've not yet seen this done well, but Ferrari and/or Porsche will crack the code because they have done it masterfully with heavy ICE cars. Tesla has the IT figured out, but... yawn.
     
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  6. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    We really haven't seen the next best sports car yet. Much as I love the classic Porsches and Ferraris, I agree we need to celebrate those, keep them on the road, and also let go of the past. Also, remember that the early iterations of the great sports cars weren't so great -- early 911s are deathtraps; the Merc 300SL was cobbled together out of heavy '50s S-Class bits, and the beautiful 365 GTB/4 drove like a truck around town.

    Young engineers will get the recipe right. No need to cling to Colin Chapman, Ferry Porsche or even Enzo himself.
     
  7. ddrewesusa

    ddrewesusa F1 Rookie
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    I will reiterate: Anyone can make a body panel, anyone can put in an electric motor, anyone can design electronics to control power to, and harvesting from, the electric motor, anyone can deliver instant torque with an electric motor, anyone can make an interior with the latest gadgets. Where is the specialty?
     
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  8. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    You must not be in horological circles. A cheaper version, ironically, the F-91W is considered legendary among many watch snobs. For the exact reasons I stated. Of course, some disagree (as shown below), but even then there's debate; there's no denying this watch's impact.

     
  9. ddrewesusa

    ddrewesusa F1 Rookie
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    Expensive watches are jewelry, just like gold necklaces and diamond rings. A car is not jewelry and its not just performance that matters, there has to be other separations that make something special that only a select number of items in the market can satisfy. My wife has a Mercedes and it is quick, but the 599's acceleration, the screaming of that V12, the torque, and the vibration of that engine and transmission, and its lineage are what makes that car special, and my wife's Mercedes misses every single category. If the category was "arrive at work", then they are evenly matched, but that does not drive adrenaline or its specialness. Just like if the category for a watch was "tell time", then a cheap casio would be evenly matched with the Rolex. But Rolex's are made of gold, they have finely crafted micro sized components that takes (or did take) craftsmen using magnifying glasses to produce and assemble, and they may have diamonds and precious stones, the best of everything and they are an expensive piece of jewelry because of it. If Rolex changed their diamonds to moissanite and the solid gold to steel with a gaseous gold deposit and the precision internals to a time chip, would Rolex still be able to sell their watch for $20k? This is the same as Ferrari putting the same internals as every other manufacturer in the industry? Is the car still worth $500k?

    Honda can make a frame in any dimensions they want, they can make body panels look just like a Ferrari, they can put leather interiors, a souless electric motor, control electronics, and a battery, and make it look however they want, but the reality is Honda will do it for less than $75k and this eventually will drown out the extremely expensive Ferrari since people will slowly forget about the ICE Ferrari that makes Ferrari special due to the design, the performance, the fit and finish, and driving experience will all be the same across all manufacturers and that's when the collapse will occur.

    Ferrari will put outrageously overpriced carbon pieces to justify the costs and Honda will do the same at a fraction of the cost and still meet the 75k. The only thing that will be different is the badge on the vehicle and without the ability to compete with performance (since everyone will have the same performance) then it will make Ferrari just another electric scooter on the block. What makes Ferrari special is that special performance and race tested engine that the other manufacturers do not have. We wrap that baby with an aerodynamic design (which any manufacturer can do) and the system is worth the money. My point is that when the Ferrari, and every other exotic company, goes souless, then it will be beginning of the end of them or the pricing will have to come to rival the average car company. It never happens quickly, but it will happen. This is my opinion.
     
  10. RossoCorsa22

    RossoCorsa22 Karting

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    I'm not saying you're wrong; I agree with a lot of your post. But then I look at, say, a Tesla Model S Plaid vs. the Porsche Taycan Turbo S. Both cars have equal 0-60 performance, so you could say that their 'engines' are essentially the same. However, driving a Model S doesn't feel remotely special. Driving the Taycan, at least for me, does. The handling, the design, the fit and finish, the "Porscheness" of it all. And yet Zuffenhausen accomplished that feeling without actually having an engine to wrap the car around.

    So that begs the question. What is it that makes a car special? You could put a Ferrari engine in a Yugo GV and I daresay nobody would buy it. You could also put a Yugo engine in a Pista Spider body and I'm also going to guess nobody would buy it. So what is the secret sauce? The engine? The styling? The handling? The badge?

    I dunno. If Ferrari made an all-electric car that achieved what the Taycan has done for Porsche, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. So for me, I guess it's not the engine. It's the styling, the handling, the way the car makes you feel. That, to me, is what makes a car special. The sound a car makes just isn't that important to me (aside from that godawful new Porsche electric race prototype that sounds like the screeching of the undead.) But I'm just one person. Others place tremendous importance on how an engine sounds.

    It's an alchemy that is impossible to define because it's different for everyone. So we shall see. In the brave new electric era, there will be just as many enthusiasts as there are today. They'll just argue about different things :D
     
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  11. ddrewesusa

    ddrewesusa F1 Rookie
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    Very good post. This is a very good perspective and why I think it makes this such a volatile subject. It really hones in on the question you pointed out, “What makes this vehicle special to me?” Everyone has their position on what makes something special to them and your comparisons are spot on. It’s hard to put your finger on it sometimes due to all the varying reasons and personal experiences. Thanks for the great post and your points are well taken.
     
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  12. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Ferrari is special to me simply because it was a car you would rarely see. It was an event..a real momment for the car guy to see one in person. Now? It's seems every 3rd person has one.

    Production numbers? They have built more Ferraris in the last 10 years then ever before. Stelantis? Yup..

    The Carbon fiber thing is over done..and well over priced at this point. Hate to say it..

    Most modern Ferrari buyers are suckers and Ferrari knows it. Which is why they charge 5k for apple car play. I have the same system in my truck..and apple car play is standard..along with android auto. Ferrari now caters to the rich fool who only understands one thing and nothing else..
     
  13. RossoCorsa22

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    #163 RossoCorsa22, Jun 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
    Thank you! :) You make excellent points, as well. It got me thinking on my drive home today... we witness the 'end of ------ as we knew it" more often than we probably stop to think. For some, like my dad, the age of "proper sports cars" ended the instant they put anything electronic on the car, like
    fuel injection. For others, the golden era ended with the advent of driver aids like ABS, traction control, and so on. And for still others, the golden age is right now. I suppose it's impossible to recognize a "golden age" until it's in the rearview mirror though...
     
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  14. 695

    695 Formula Junior

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    Why would anyone buy a Pagani with an AMG engine, when they can get the engine in an --- AMG --- at 1/20 of the price? And still, no Pagani have been sold second hand under MSRP. It is not the words you use, it is how you put them together that makes the poem special :)

    That is why I look forward to the return of the great coach build era with the EVs.

    I agree that the Taycan feels much more speciel than the Tesla, an dI understand that your post was not about the performance, more about the styling, but Taycans technology is still lacking very much and the only technical comparison you can make between the Plaid and the Taycan is that they are both EVs. The Taycan is a strong first EV product from Porsche and it shows us they take it seriously. But the Plaid does 0-130 in under 7s and a 1/4 under 9s with a trap speed of 155, it is a beast. And this from a car company that did not exist in at the turn of the millennium.

    The street level EV performance is already past the street ICE performance. I would love to see what Ferrari could do with the EV technology.
     
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  15. 695

    695 Formula Junior

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    I actually think they have done a very good job converting it. They doubled the power, they shaved off a few pounds and kept the weight distribution 50/50 and made it a daily driver with no issues. I would love to experience it live. And the development that Electric Classic Cars are doing is really interesting, take their 914, which is now a bolt on kid using original mounting points for the engine and gearbox.
     
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  16. day355

    day355 Formula 3

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    Electric and digital cars will be to Ferrari what subprime crisis were to Lehman Brothers.
    They are far too arrogant today to understand it.
     
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  17. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

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    They Taycan and the Plaid aren't at all in the same class. The only reason they keep being compared is they happen to cost about the same and have similar straight line performance. The Taycan is a sports car that is wonderful to drive, the model S is a big family sedan that happens to have ridiculous performance. The Model S has more cargo room than most SUVs and is perfect for a family to go on a road trip. The Taycan is a wonderful for a daily driver.

    Its a great example of how a car company can differentiate EVs. It'll be great to see how Ferrari takes it to the next level.
     
  18. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Ferrari lacks the technical ability to compete with Porsche and Tesla for EV technology. They will have to outsource the powertrain and UI/UX. Their battery technology for ICE cars is still a disaster.
     
  19. 695

    695 Formula Junior

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    Bu that's the thing, the Taycan is not even close to the Plaid in straight line performance. Driving wise I agree, but performance there is no one next to or even close to the Plaid. It is very impressive what they have done with that car.

    That you can only choose between five colors and a FSD that is nowhere near out of beta is another thing
     
  20. sinistermist

    sinistermist Karting

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    That seems like a poor example. An AMG engine is highly desirable in its own right. Let's do the opposite and use Lotus as an example. You spend 100k on a car that has a camry engine. The car itself is great. The power plant is reliable. It is easier to maintain. End of the day, it is a mass produced Camry engine and nothing special. It is certainly more reliable than their previous TT V8. It just does not have the cache.
     
  21. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Clapping.

    Like the Taycan, Macan, Panamera, makes the 911 GTRS, 918, or hell the Carrera GT bad right?!

    ironically it’s because of those cars Porsche can still consistently offer the other hard core cars.
     
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  22. RossoCorsa22

    RossoCorsa22 Karting

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    I just try to pretend the Macan doesn't exist. I mean I know the Macan and Cayenne make creations like the GT3 or GT4 financially possible to create, but the Macan...I mean that thing is a gutless dog, aside from the Macan Turbo which is almost decent. (Have driven waaayyyy too many Macan service loaners.)

    What I'm eagerly waiting for is the upcoming electrified 718 Cayman, ie the 983 generation. Now if they can sound-map the GT4 RS's exhaust notes, or a GT3, and make that the Cayman's soundtrack, how awesome would that be? (I realize 90% of the folks on this forum will bury their faces in their hands in disgust at the very notion, but it would certainly sound better than the Star Wars landspeeder sound that the Taycan currently has.)

    And for maximum effect, after you turn the car off, it could play those 'clicking' sounds that engines make as they cool down. Heck, maybe even have a quart-sized oil tank that senses the car is parked in a garage and drips a few drops of oil on the garage floor each day :D:eek:
     
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  23. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    ROFL

    people still use incandescent bulbs outside decorative/themed? This guy also walking around in a top hat and pocket watch too?

    the fact that he brought up this is painful. All my LEDs are better. Not to mention they are cheaper and I never have to bust out the ladder every year to replaced burned out bulbs. The fact they are all Wi-Fi enabled is icing on the cake.

    anybody here downgrading (outside concours competitions) your LED car headlights to incandescent?

    good lord.
     
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  24. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    That’s fine, it’s a good thing your not forced to buy it yeah?

    so which would you prefer? A Porsche with no SUVs and less GT2s,GT3s, Manuel, etc or vice versa? After all, car development is not free
     
  25. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #175 paulchua, Jun 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2022
    Yet your using the internet.
    Purity can be a slippery slope.
     

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