The million dollar Question: TDF vs CGT vs Senna

They are all heavy, give or take a few pounds. Move on already.

 

SF90 coupe in Assetto Fiorano mode was comparable to the 918 but less than as good on track. I agree that stopping it repeatedly felt like it would be expensive. I’ve already gone through two sets of pads in the 765 in under 1,000km and that car is much lighter than the SF90.

Senna GTR as compared to the Essenza SCV12 is much more street car like. Far fewer adjustments available on the steering wheel, for example. FXXK Evo is also easy to drive but suffers from the electric battery weight unlike the Essenza or the Senna GTR.

Of the three in the original post, only the Senna is really a modern track car. In GTR version, it is a gentleman’s racecar. The front engine layout of the TdF makes it a handful on the track. As dangerous and demanding as the 599XX is to drive on track, there is a good reason there was not an F12XX. The CGT is a collectible. The one time I tracked it, the window cracked for no apparent reason, and the clutch went to the floor due to a fluid level issue. It is a torque beast for its day, but flighty and not comfort inducing.

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

My point - Carrera GT magnesium wheels ceramic clutch and carbon chassis is a masterpiece built by F1 engineers. Try changing the battery The entire premise of the car was for Porsche F1 engineers to show off - no one thought even Porsche they would produce it. They stopped making the CGT due to they could not get it to pass safety - one year short of what was expected.
Add - Senna is extremely fast and has a push to drink system air con soft close doors stereo and will wipe the 488 EVO

I owned Chellenge Ferrari - because it's a Ferrari Challenge car - means nada it's more like a road version than Senna or CGT is like a road car. Senna is close to 850hp - it's under rated from the factory.

Understand this Is F chat - until you have driven or been a passenger in a CGT (which I do not recommend) or Senna and hear the whistle of those turbos' add the best brakes baked for 6 months ... you won't understand the intent in 2004 or 2019.

 

I don’t believe 488 EVO is slower than Senna. We know SF90 is quicker than Senna over a single lap. We also know SF90 is a little quicker than LaF and Pista is only a couple of seconds back around Fiorano. Even a lowly 458 Challenge is miles quicker than the fastest road Ferrari, the SF90, around Fiorano - by about 4 sec, which is huge. I can’t see any way a stock Senna is quicker than a race prepared, slick shod 488 EVO.

 

But you are using feeling vs fact. I'm speaking from experience, real life experience not what I think.

 

Best posts here…use as your guide Edward.

 

Comparative empirical data on the subject of a Senna vs Challenge Evo is admittedly difficult to obtain.

What I do have as hard data is that a Senna achieved a 2:24.82 at Spa (driver unnamed), and Niccolo Schiro did a qualifying time of 2:22.336 in round 2 of Trofeo Pirelli class of Ferrari Challenge at the most recent round of Spa. Both are dry track times.

These are isolated data points and no doubt factors like driver ability come into play, but it does indicate the Evo is eminently capable of taking up to the Senna and then some


Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login

it seems that many people who like to argue lap times are those that sit on the sidelines and try to find whatever data they can find to suit their purposes

this is a lap time that very few people even know about . No engine mods , no different aero . There are many such lap records being broken /set by owners at various track days that aren’t known by many .

it’s always silly to compare a race car (team needed and way , way more expensive to run to street car anyways.

This is a 765 coupe driven by its owner at a normal track day at laguna Seca …. I was there and so was twosherpaz (he’s probably not even aware of this lap time )

 

There's another guy in a 765 that set a time at Sonoma that was significantly faster than us in Challenge cars. I can pull that video.

BTW, the 488 GT3s are another sorry. Those things are the real deal. Less power but better grip amd downforce.

 

yeah ; I’m pretty sure I know that guy too …. I believe he had a passenger also

 

No such thing as Porsche F1 engineers, Porsche hasn't had an F1 programme in decades. I guess you meant race engineers.

 

No, not feeling. Facts that the Challenge/EVO cars are much faster around Fiorano than the benchmark cars we can compare Senna to. It’s extrapolation. And that is based on fact not feeling. There may be external reasons why extrapolation is not accurate but short of a direct comparison it’s the best we have. Frankly you’d have me at slicks v road tyres.

 

In my personal experience of running in Challenge with a 488 Evo and having a 765 its NOT true. If the 765 can out run it then I know a Senna can - extrapolation. At PBIR which is a shorter track the 765 was much faster. We went back to back with the cars for comparison. If you put slicks on the 765 then not even close but again its not a race car but rather a seriously fast "track capable" car.

 

He did and his times were 4 to 5 seconds faster than my best of 1:46. I go back again this year and hope to improve on it. Just an incredible track, only second to the Glen IMO.

 

Really ..

Now considered one of the best supercars of the 2000s and the last great analog sportscar build by the German carmaker, the Carrera GT helped a seemingly cursed engine thrive and earn its place in the history books.

It started life as an epic failure, then shed two cylinders, becoming a Formula 1 engine that nobody wanted. After that, it spent several years gathering dust until it was converted into a promising Le Mans-spec unit, fitted in a car that was never allowed to race. In the end, it found its way into the Carrera GT, becoming one of the best production V10s ever conceived.

 

Have SF90AF and 765LT all carbon incoming - appreciate the engineering and intent.
There are videos (private) show Senna faster - it's not close.
Senna and GTR do not get the respect of many, until running side by side.
Watch the 720GT3X at Goodwood.

 

For Senna v SF90 the only direct comparisons that have any air of reliability are what same magazines test on same tracks. So far this favours the SF90 but only on two tracks so somewhat inconclusive. But my main point is that a much lower powered car with slicks and proper race aero and geometry is much faster on track than any road car, including Senna or SF90. Yes, of course you could put slicks and aero on a Senna but that wasn’t the original point in question. Your 720GTX video seems to show exactly what I’m getting at so thanks for posting. True race cars are a different league in terms of lap time. There is also a top gear video somewhere with a comparison of a Senna v a 650 GT3 around Silverstone. Senna was 2’09” v the GT3 at 2’02”. 7s quicker.

 

Owning and driving both, I have 100% exact same experience you have with both cars. Speaking from the driver position I personally prefer the sound in the TdF with all valves open over the CGT with the targa top on.

can also tell the weight difference with the TdF at 3800 lbs. That weight penalty compared to the CGT is made up by the TdF electronics which the CGT does not have. I have never pushed the CGT close to 10/10ths. And still haven't pushed to 9/10ths. While with the TdF AND the electronics on Race mode I am fine at 9/10ths.

My only point of confusion with what you wrote is that the TdF does not have a line to competitive racing (as opposed to customer racing).

Other than that, thank you for a great succinct comparison.

 

Ferrari challenge 488 3188 vs Senna 2880 pounds active aero air con radio air bags soft close doors the list goes on.
Ferrari has not built a like Senna with 800 pounds downforce over 800 hp - if they did it would be 2 - 3x the price of the Senna.
Magazines can say whatever they wish - let's move on.

 

My favorite car is the FXX for those very reasons.Visceral, thrilling, loose, great sound.

Street car that is similar is the Challenge Stradale.

I had the AF package on the sold coupe. Not on the spider. The ride is softer which I like in the spider. It is not a track car.

I love my 458 Challenge. Also a manual conversion 360 Challenge. Speed isn’t everything. It’s a lot. But not always everything.

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login